ISRAELI APARTHEID WEEK
Toronto, Ontario
February 12-17, 2007
www.endisraeliapartheid.net
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For the third consecutive year, Israeli Apartheid Week will take place in Toronto from February 12-17, 2007. This year we continue to work towards building a collective understanding of the Zionist ethnic cleansing, colonization and occupation of Palestine. The series of events will include nightly talks and presentations from some of the leading activists and analysts in the anti-apartheid movement such as Bonita Lawrence, Joel Kovel, Walter Lehn, and Jamal Zahalka. The week will culminate in a day of action on February 17th as part of the growing boycott, divestment, and sanctions campaign against Israeli Apartheid.
The apartheid analysis put forward during Israeli Apartheid Week in previous years has played an important role in raising awareness and disseminating information about Zionism, the Palestinian liberation struggle, as well as the connections with the Aboriginal sovereignty struggle on Turtle Island and the South African Anti-Apartheid movement.
Rapidly spreading on a global scale, this year, Israeli Apartheid Week will be taking place simultaneously in Toronto, Montreal, New York, Oxford, Cambridge and London.
As Israel and its global backers like “Canada” and the “United States” tighten the strangulation hold on the Palestinian people in an attempt to provoke Palestinian infighting; and while the Israeli military continues its brutal daily assault on Palestinian life, it is crucial that people in the rest of the world wake up to the apartheid nature of the Israeli state, and realize that it is our collective responsibility to expose and isolate this racist regime until apartheid is dismantled.
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Students Against Israeli Apartheid (SAIA) Proudly Presents: Israeli Apartheid Week 2007
*** Please visit www.endisraeliapartheid.net regularly for updates***
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Monday Feb 12th 2007
“Apartheid: Turtle Island, South Africa, Palestine”
Speakers: Bonita Lawrence, Shaheen Ariefdien, Hazem Jamjoum
Moderator: Judy Rebick
Location: Ryerson University (Main Building) LIB 72
Directions: 350 Victoria Street. Exit at Dundas Station. Walk East on Dundas, and then North on Victoria Street)
Time: 7pm
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Tuesday Feb 13th 2007 (2 events: 12pm and 7pm)
12pm:
Film Screening: “Kanehsatake: 270 Years of Resistance”
Location: Sidney Smith (room 2128)
Directions: 100 St. George Street (Exit from St. George subway Station and walk South a little past Harbord)
Time: 12pm
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7pm:
“The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”
Speakers: Azada Rahi, Zac Smith, Issam Al Yamani
Moderator: Kole Kilibarda
Location: University of Toronto, Tanz Neuroscience Building, Room 6/7 (Theatre)
Directions: 6 Queen’s Park Crescent West (On the North-East Corner of College and Queen’s Park (right next to Queen’s Park Subway Station)
Time: 7pm
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Wednesday Feb 14th 2007 (2 events: 12pm and 7pm)
12pm:
RALLY AGAINST RACIST POLICE INACTION AND IMPUNITY!
Hundreds of Indigenous women have been murdered or have gone missing over the last 30 years. Today we come together to demonstrate against the complicity of the colonizer state and its institutions – police, RCMP, coroners offices and the courts, in the ongoing genocide against First Nations. Indigenous communities are over-policed and indigenous girls make up the fastest growing prison population yet their deaths go uninvestigated and their killers unpunished.
Organized by NO MORE SILENCE
Location: Outside Police headquarters at Bay and College
Directions: Exit at College Subway Station and walk half a block west.
Time: 12pm
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7pm:
“Apartheid in Present-day Palestine”
Speakers: Walter Lehn, Jon Elmer, Nimer Sultany
Moderator: Zein Ayoub
Location: University of Toronto, Tanz Neuroscience Building, Room 6/7 (Theatre)
Directions: 6 Queen’s Park Crescent West (On the North-East Corner of College and Queen’s Park (right next to Queen’s Park Subway Station)
Time: 7pm
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Thursday Feb 15th 2007, 7pm
“Ideologies of Genocide and Apartheid”
Speakers: Gabi Piterberg, Joel Kovel
Moderator: Navid Anvari
Location: University of Toronto, Tanz Neuroscience Building, Room 6/7 (Theatre)
Directions: 6 Queen’s Park Crescent West (On the North-East Corner of College and Queen’s Park (right next to Queen’s Park Subway Station)
Time: 7pm
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Friday Feb 16th 2007, 7pm
“Debunking the Myth of Israel as a Democracy”
Speaker: Jamal Zahalka
Moderator: Rafeef Ziadah
Location: OISE Auditorium (Ontario Institute of Secondary Education)
Directions: Next to St. George Subway Station (exit on Bedford Street), 252 Bloor Street West
Time: 7pm
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Saturday Feb 17th 2007 (2 events: 1pm and 7pm)
1pm:
BOYCOTT CHAPTERS/INDIGO DAY OF ACTION
Please join CAIA and allies to protest Israeli Apartheid and highlight the support it receives from the Heseg Foundation. Please visit www.caiaweb.org for more information about Heseg and the Chapters/Indigo connection.
Organized by the Coalition against Israeli Apartheid
Location: Israeli Consulate at 180 Bloor Street West
Directions: Exit at St. George Subway Station and walk East on Bloor St. till you get to Avenue Rd.
Time: 1pm
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7pm:
Join SAIA for TRIVIA NIGHT!
PLUS music by Rubin, Bona Mohammad, and many more!
Light refreshments will be served
Bring your family and friends – this is a child-friendly event
Most importantly…Bring your game!
Location: TBA
Time: 7pm
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PLEASE VISIT OUR WEBSITE FOR UPDATES WWW.ENDISRAELIAPARTHEID.NET
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![Daily Mail [UK]](http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t193/Annamarie_033/mHead2.gif "British daily newspaper")
February 7, 2007 at 9:43 pm |
Dear CAIA, and other such “organizations” involved in this week…I wish to tell you that you people are the only ones who spread hate…And it sickens me to see you brainwash such large ammounts of support…I also wish to inform you that your events do not go unnoticed by the Jewish population and I can promise much protest, and opposition at each and every event you have planned..Don’t worry, we hear you shouting your hate speech, and we also hear you inciting genocide, and we will take ACTION!!! The Jewish people made a pledge after more than 6 MILLION of our people were massacred by hateful bastards like you, and that pledge was NEVER AGAIN! Never again will we allow ourselves to be slandered in the streets, Never again will we allow racist bigots like the CAIA stand up and declare us evil…..NEVER AGAIN will these acts go unpunished, unnoticed, and unanwsered!! You and your followers make me sick and I spit on the name CAIA, SAIA, and any other name that aligns themselves with the likes of TERRORIST supporting fuckers like yourselves..
Take Care, and may PEACE allign itself with the Muslim people, and other innocents you have in your grasp!!
February 7, 2007 at 10:50 pm |
Hi, and thank for the informative website.
I did not know that the owners of Chapters/Indigo provided support for Israel.
Frankly, I had been boycotting Indigo because they did not want to sell Mark Steyn’s excellent book “America Alone”, about the dangers Islam poses to the entire civilized world.
However, having obtained the above information from your site, I will start to buy from Indigo once more. Indeed, it does seem that they sell Mr. Steyn’s book at this time.
Thanks again for the information, and have have a hateful week.
February 7, 2007 at 11:23 pm |
Remember to talk at this so called conference about the genocide of Africans by Muslims in Darfur, the gassing of Kurds by Iraqis, the butchery of Iraqi Muslims by Iraqi Muslims every single day. Remember to also point out the glorious freedom of religion in Iran, Saudi Arabia. Oh, you might also discuss the 470th ceasefire between the murderers of Hamas and Fatah.
February 7, 2007 at 11:33 pm |
The Jews have occupied the land of Israel continuously for the last 3300 years, and they are the only people to have done so. In recognition of that undeniable historic fact, all of “Palestine” was to be given to the Jews for a national homeland by a 1917 ruling of the League of Nations. Rich Arabic Oil Countries pressured Britain and steadily the Jews were betrayed by Britain’s administration of the mandate. By 1948, when the Jews finally are granted a homeland, three fourths of the original land had been parceled out to Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. Some would wonder why Israel didn’t protest.
Arab and Muslim governments and groups went to a conference against racism in Durban, South Africa and distributed racist literature, much of it modeled after Nazi and White Power material. Of course, this is no surprise as much of the Arab world (e.g., the Mufti of Jerusalem and Iraq in the 1930s) supported Adolph Hitler, attracted to his program of racism, death, and destruction.
In fact, racism is institutionalized under Islam–an institution known as “dhimmitude.” The oppression of women under Islam is illustrated in countries such as Islamo-fascist Iran and Afghanistan under the fascist Taliban. Women are assumed an evil temptation and are kept in heavy potato sacks. When Saddam Hussein failed to die fighting, many Arabs accused him of acting “like a women,” apparently the greatest insult they could think of.
February 7, 2007 at 11:36 pm |
Have fun laying the groundwork for the next holocaust next week. rather than trying to actually work to solve the rampant corruption, greed, poverty, and ignorance that thrive in the palestinian state, you choose to use the same old scapegoat that ignorant, corrupt people have been using for hundreds of years, the Jews. Have fun inciting racial hatred and violence against the Jewish people, and trying to blame everyone else for your problems. In closing I would like to wish you Heil Hitler, Death To Israel, Death To America, yadda yadda yadda. Allahu Akbar!, you ignorant shitbags.
February 8, 2007 at 2:58 am |
Well, I will definetly would like to resist the Apartheid. Let us start with some questions:
Q: How many arabs live in Israel, with full rights as Iraeli citizens? How many are in the goernment?
Q: How many Jews live in Gaza (a palistine state since august 2005)as palistinian citizens? How many are in the palastinian government?
Q: How many Jews are living in Jordan, with full rights as citizens? How many in Syria? In Lebanon?
Q: Can you show me ONE Jewish minister or parliament member in ONE of the 22 Arab states?
Q: What does the word Aparthied mean?
Q: Which state is Apartheid, Israel or Gaza (palistine)? Israel or Jordan? Israel or Saudi Arabia?
So, will you join my resistance against the Arabic Apartheid?
February 8, 2007 at 4:00 am |
While I read all opinions expressed in comments here, please refrain from name-calling an being hateful. If you read my posts and the About page, you will see that I do NOT promote hatred, violence, racism, anti-semitism, apartheid, wars, or anything else that is detrimental to individuals or a race/religious group. Quite the contrary!
I am for HUMAN RIGHTS for ALL PEOPLE!! This includes Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Indigenous People/Aboriginals, etc… regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation. I support ALL LIFE on our planet, for ALL LIFE COMES FROM THE SAME SOURCE!!!
Palestinians have the right to live in their OWN land, just as Jews have the right to live in theirs. No one is inferior/superior to the other. Atrocities have been perpetrated against the Jews, but sadly, now some of them are doing the same to the Palestinians and others… Whichever way you try to justify this, it is still not right.
There was a post I put up a few days ago about a Jewish woman and her thoughts about this. She had family who were in concentration camps, and others who were with the Resistance, so in my humble opinion, she knows of what she speaks…
That is all I ask from my commenters: know of what you speak. Please do not be so quick to hate; open your minds; and try to suggest valid solutions through dialogue… And let me remind you that the atrocities perpetrated against the Jews during the Nazis was not the fault of the Palestinians… It does not give the Jews reason to do the likewise… Does anyone remember the hateful pogroms?? Kristellnacht???
Hatred and violence are self-perpetuating and ultimately solve nothing, only bring more of the same… Tragically, it is the innocents who suffer the most, while the those in power get rich on their tragedies… Real solutions can only be brought about by open dialogue and actually listening what the other ’side’ has to say… Grievances must be addressed and agreements must be kept.
No nation has the right to rule over another; no religious group has the right to enslave those whose beliefs differ — no race or religious belief is superior to another… Do the vituperative commenters hear this???
February 8, 2007 at 4:31 am |
As a U of T graduate I’m saddened but not surprised at this university allowing such things to take place. It makes me ashamed to have been educated there and to be a Canadian. If you allow this to happen then you must allow Christian gatherings unhindered as well no matter how offensive that may seem to you. Why not allow a showing of “Obsession” as part of a series against Islamic extremists? Surely, you’re against terrorism. Why not allow people like Brigitte Gabriel to speak on her experiences when Muslims and Christians warred in Lebanon? How about allowing American soldiers tell it like it is in Iraq instead of hearing certain media reports? There’s always another side. Someone’s terrorist is someone else’s freedom fighter. It’s only fair to be balanced, unless, of course, you are decided on what that is.
February 8, 2007 at 4:36 am |
There is no “Palestine” or “Palestinians”! There has never been a Palestinian country, language, culture or people. Israel was re-named Palestine by the Romans and has no connection to the Arabs. Jews were in fact the first people to be called Palestinians because that is the name that was given to their homeland. Only in the 1960’s did Arabs start calling themsleves “Palestinians” for propaganda purposes.
Even the co-founder of the Plo admitted that the “Palestinian people” were a fraud. Arabs are occupying Jewish land in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. All those places were part of ancient Israel.
Jews have always been willing to share the land with the immigrant Arabs, whose ancestors came from Arabia, but the Arabs have only responded with violence. They raise their children to hate and murder. Israel has no option but to defend itself from such barbaric people.
I urge all Israel-haters to boycott Israel. You would have to throw away your computer since a large amount of computer technology is invented in Israel. Also throw away your cellphone, certain medicines, etc. I would boycott Arab/Muslim products but there’s nothing to boycott!
http://www.Israel21C.com
February 8, 2007 at 6:00 am |
Are you commenters not hearing me? Let me reiterate:
I am NOT anti-semite, anti-Jewish or anti-anyone who is just and respects the human rights, civil liberties, dignity, right-to-exist-and-live-in-peace, and HUMANness of others!
I AM ‘anti’ (against) any group/race/religion/gender treating ANY OTHER group/race/religion/gender as ‘less than’, meaning: lesser human beings.
Therefore, I AM ‘anti’ (against) bigotry, racism, discrimination, injustice, slavery, dehuminization, degradation, apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing, brutality, torture, imperialism, sexism, exploitation, terrorism, wars …. and ALL the other horrible acts we human beings perpetrate upon our fellow human beings. That’s it in a nutshell! So you may continue with your vituperative attacks, or you may have rational discussions. It is up to you!
February 8, 2007 at 7:31 am |
regarding the claim that israel is an APARTHEID state – there are 1 million israeli-arabs living inside israel (67 borders). they enjoy full rights as citizens , even though there is not much love between jews and arabs. recently, an arab minister was appointed to the government. the arab citizens enjoy more civil rights than there brothers and sisters in arab countries, under arab rule.
you show pictures of palestinians under “oppression” in the west bank and gaza but give no context – the barriers, checkpoints and walls were not esteblished for our pleasure. they are a measure of stopping the palestinian terror, which took a heavy toll on our civilian population. don’t forget – there was a peace process up until 2000, when the palestinians launched a surprise attack on us and started a campaign of terror (all because they didn’t want a two state solution, as seen in the posters of the hate week mentioned above).
regarding ETHNIC CLEANSING – when you discuss the ‘nakba’ please make sure you mention the ethnic cleansing of nearly 1 million jews from ARAB countries in 1948-49. my family had to escape from iraq after being threatened, and than the arabs took control of their land and property. it seems to me that your side is much better at ethnic cleansing…
it also seems to me you are planning a new athnic cleansing when i see in you posters that israel is WIPED OFF the map.
stop blaming us for all your problems! and stop inciting to racism and hate in the mask of human rights!
February 8, 2007 at 7:53 am |
I don’t see a pogrom anywhere in the schedule. When is time set aside for the beating and murder of some Jews on campus? I’m sure U of T wouldn’t have any problem with that sort of activity, being in the spirit of freedom of expression of the participants’ murderous hatred of Jews.
February 8, 2007 at 8:38 am |
Can we really not have an open, thoughtful debate about this issue? Why must you resort to snide remarks, Stacey?
Nimrod, I can understand you better: at least you explain why you feel as you do.
I’ve been in groups where BOTH sides were represented and we indeed had interesting, open, thoughtful discussions.
All I ask is that you keep an open mind. It is obvious that the Palestinians have valid grievances, and they also should be heard. No one is talking about ‘pogroms’ or wanting to ‘beat and murder some Jews on campus’! That kind of inane verbiage is what incites hatred and violence.
Don’t you think that the Palestinians should be able to rule themselves in their OWN LAND? Why must they be chattels of Israel? Why can’t they co-exist peacefully, side-by-side, each in their own country?? Why is this so impossible??
I am surprised that none of you seem to know that ‘Semites’ are members of any of the peoples supposedly descended from Shem, son of Noah (Gen. 10:21 ff.) including the Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Babylonians and Phoenicians. Semitic is an adjective, of or relating to a group of languages including Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic, and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician, Assyrian and Babylonian, constituting a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family. They are characterized by internal vowel changes (ablaut) distinguishing related words…
So who should call whom ‘anti-Semite/anti-Semitic’? Don’t you see that you are all related, as indeed the whole human race is related, regardless of the shade of our skin or our religious (or non-religious) persuasion? What is it that really divides us?? Perhaps it is our own fear and ignorance…
February 8, 2007 at 1:01 pm |
I understand the need for freedom of speech on campus and therefore do not advocate or expect the University to shut down the event. However, I am saddened that such an event would ever take place or would have enough support to be more than a token protest by a few radicals. It seems today that everywhere you look, Israel is the problem for all, and serious discussion of ‘wiping Israel of the map’ is prevalent.
Your schedule mentions such titles as “Apartheid: Turtle Island, South Africa, Palestine” and “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” and “Apartheid in Present-day Palestine” and “Debunking the Myth of Israel as a Democracy”. To these event I will address two points.
The first, which I believe just about ever post so far has attempted to draw attention, is the fact that there is no corresponding discussions of similar events in non-Jewish countries. For instance, Nimrod mentioned his family being run out of Iraq because he was Jewish, and such attacks against Jewish families were and are still a great travesty that has caused the Jewish population in in Arabic countries such as Egypt to drop from 75,000 to 100. Just look at Wikipedia, “Jews in Arab lands have been reduced by more than 99% since 1948 [due to] discrimination, harassment, persecution, and financial confiscation on the part of the majority population and/or government agencies.”
Secondly, if your constituents are so concerned for the well being of the Palestinian people, then perhaps you should be directing your anger at Egypt, Lebenon, Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. The camps there are essentially concentration camps for the refugees are not allowed to hold office, vote, have a job, own property, or any other rights to citizenship. Again off of Wikipedia, “The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) “to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland.” The only, I emphasize this, ONLY two countries in the Middle East to grant Palestinians citizenship are Jordan and Israel. The rest of the Palestinians can rot for eternity for all the Muslim nations care while Israel has given them full rights and positions in government. I fully recommend you read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees#Treatment_in_Arab_countries
One final point I wish to make; no doubt during the conference’s many discussions, the issue of the wall will come up as an ‘apartheid’ act. To this I would challenge that first and foremost, the wall would not exist if suicide bombers were not charging across the border to kill as many Jews as possible. Insofar as to this purpose, the was has served admirably, according IDF spokeswoman Meir, “While successful suicide bombings are at a low, the number of attempts is rising, she said. The Israeli army arrested 187 potential suicide bombers last year, up from 96 in 2005.” And so, there would be no wall if the Palestinians could just stop trying to blow themselves up everyday. http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/16429529.htm
And the final challenge with regard to the wall is that, I would argue that the wall represents what the Palestinian people want; their own nation. Once the wall is complete, there will be an effective two state solution with a very real border separating the two nations. But, I know that the two state solution is not the real issue for that has been tried before at Camp David in 2000 which was unsatisfactory for Arafat. Even though he would gain 95% of the lands lost in the Six Day War, he through it aside for the agreement would mean that there would be no destruction of Israel.
I could continue with more arguments, but I fear there is a length limit on these posts and do not wish to dissuade readers with my overabundance of words. I invite all to read as I have here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_peace_process
February 8, 2007 at 2:57 pm |
Think about Rachel Corrie, racism, home demolitions, international law, cluster bombs, massacres at Sabra & Shatilla, and the terrorism implicit in the threat of nuclear bombs. Does anyone here agree with the bombing of UN outposts and refugee camps and the intentional creation of a massive oil slick in the Mediterranean last summer?
You can find the following quote in Volume 9, Issue 8 of “Frontline” (see http://www.thehindu.com):
The Nazification of Israel
By brazenly resorting to Nazi-style rhetoric and methods of persecution in Palestine, Israel, with the consent of the majority of its own people and the unlimited support of the United States, perpetrates the kind of crimes that the Jewish state claims as the raison d’etre of its own creation in 1948.
Or you can read the March 2005 press release of Human Rights Watch at:
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/RMOI-6AD82D?OpenDocument&cc=pse . Part of its statement reads:
Human rights concerns for the 61st Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights
Objective
Every year the Commission on Human Rights adopts several resolutions condemning Israel for abuses against Palestinians. As outlined below, Israel continues to commit serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law which deserve condemnation, notably the dire humanitarian impact of the wall and other forms of closure that amount to collective punishment.
Yes, the statement also speaks of Palestinian wrongdoings.
February 8, 2007 at 3:51 pm |
Verbena, thank you for your blog. You have my full support for what you are promoting. The State of Israel continues to persecute and terrorise the Palestinians by depriving them of the right to live peacefully in their own homeland.
Israel has confined the Palestinians to modern day concentration camps in Gaza and the West Bank. The people living in these places face daily humiliation at Israeli check points where they line up for hours or days before being refused to allow to continue their journey. They are denied medical care even in emergencies. Israel’s apartheid wall has resulted in land being confiscated from Palestinians and with this land the livelihood of countless families.
The Israeli army makes no distinction between civilians or soldiers in its operations. It routinely shells Palestinian areas killing and wounding men, women and children. What is happening in the Gaza and the West Bank should be unequivocally condemned. It is a crime against humanity.
The victims in this cycle of violence are also Israelis. Suicide bombings by Palestinians cause death, destruction and misery. These bombings too deserve the condemnation they are accorded.
The greatest tragedy in the conflict is the loss of human life and unfortunately the Israeli government doesn’t appear to want to a resolution to the conflict. A settlement is only possible when the Palestinians have their own country where they can live with dignity and in peace. Countless ‘peace’ agreements have been drawn up in the past, and rejected by the Palestinians, according to the media. These ‘agreements’ leave the Palestinians no choice but to reject them as they favour Israel at the expense of the Palestinians.
The violence will continue needlessly if a negotiated settlement is not reached. More Palestinians and Israelis will die; this is not the solution.
This has nothing to do with being anti-semitic or anti-muslim. What is going on is oppression in its worst form.
A relative of mine who worked in Israel recounted what he experienced when he was stopped at an Israeli check point. The Israeli soldier started questioning and he replied to the soldier “My parents told me this is what it was like in Europe under Nazi occupation, the check points and the questions,” After hearing this the soldier let him proceed.
February 8, 2007 at 6:21 pm |
Hello,
When you say you are not anti-semitic (and please stop with the talk about jews, arabs etc being semitic. Were the nazi’s trying to murder all arabs? Of course not, they wanted to kill all jews, with help from their jihadi friends in Bosnia and “Palestine”) why are you promoting your events with a poster showing no Israeli state anymore. Is that what you mean by “Palestinians” ruling their own land? They already have their own land and that is called Jordan.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years and are not an imperialistic cancer or whatever they are called these days.
I agree with you that we are all related regardless of skin etc. But for me that is the reason why I cannot support the “Palestinian” death cult anymore. Why not support the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afhanistan, http://www.rawa.org or the Organisation for Women’s Freedom in Iraq, http://www.equalityiniraq.com. These groups deserve support, not the PLO, Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah and all other extreme rightwing groups that fight against Israel.
When the Jews lay down their arms they will be destroyed tomorrow. When the jihadi lay down their arms, there will be peace tomorrow.
February 8, 2007 at 8:33 pm |
Michael, thank you for your comment: it is the first balanced one I’ve heard here so far…
I am amazed at how many people are unwilling to admit Israel’s fault in this ongoing conflict.
Robert, tragically, it is the innocents on both sides who suffer the most. I’ve talked to people on ‘both sides’ and all they basically want is to live in peace and dignity. That is all. Most people on both sides don’t want walls, bulldozing of homes, wars, fighting amongst themselves and their neighbours, and all the other horrors …. There are many Jews living in Israel who do NOT agree with the terrible things being done in their name.
No, I am not supportive of any ‘death cults’, and yes, I am already a supporter of RAWA, MADRE, and other similar organizations… If you’d read more of my posts, you would have seen this…
I also think you are wrong when you imply that Peace can only come about it the Arabs (you call them ‘jihadi’) lay down their arms, while the Jews keep theirs because otherwise they “will be destroyed tomorrow”. I disagree with this. As I keep repeating over and over again, most of the Palestinians want to live in peace in their homeland, free from oppression. They do NOT WANT violence.
The only way peace can come about is through negotiated settlement which is equitable and just, like Michael said in his comment. Please read it before you make your assumptions…
February 8, 2007 at 9:46 pm |
P.S. to Robert: Where do you see posters showing ‘no Israeli state’? I’ve never seen them, so please let me know…
I did NOT imply anywhere that the State of Israel should not exist. Of course they have the right to exist! Just as the Palestinians have the right to exist!
As for your inferences about my anti-Semitism, I’ve already talked about that at length…. there’s no for me to keep reiterating. Why are you so quick to dismiss that both Jews and Arabs are semitic. Indeed, Hitler was trying to wipe out the Jews not the Arabs. So in that context the modern use of ‘anti-semitism’ has validity. Why did Hitler not try to do the same thing to the Arabs? I don’t know, but my humble guess is that maybe because there were not many Arabs living in Germany at that time, so he could not blame the Weimar republic’s problems on them. The Jews happened to be there in large numbers — and throughout Europe, where pogroms and anti-Jewish sentiment & actions were already ongoing — so they were made the scapegoats by this crazed monster. But that horrible experience does not give Jews the right to use the Palestinians as their scapegoats in turn.
For more on this, please read to a post I put up a week or so ago, titled: “The Holocaust and Defense of the Palestinians”, written by a Jewish woman whose family were involved in the French Resistance, while other members/friends fell victims to the Nazis. It will show you a different perspective, and better explain what I am trying to say…. Above all, please keep an open mind, and try to look at all sides of this complex situation… (I don’t profess to know everything, indeed, the more I learn, the more I realise how little I know and how much I’ve still to learn…)
Verbena-19
February 8, 2007 at 10:47 pm |
Bellerophon, thank you for your comment. I can see that you are interested in intelligent discussion on this highly contentious, divisive issue. We may not fully agree, but at least you provide thoughtful insight into thinking and feeling the way you do… I will check out the links you’ve provided.
Brian, thanks for those references and links. Yes, I remember Rachel Corrie, I did a post about her last year on my old blog: verbena-19.blogspot.com, where it is still available for reading, as that site remains up and being used for my old archived posts (at least until I figure out what to do with them.).
I recommend that others read your references and the material in those links. Your input is much appreciated.
Annamarie
February 8, 2007 at 11:16 pm |
Btw, in case I forgot to mention here in my previous replies to comments:
I find those extremists who advocate ‘death to Israel’ to be despicable. Therefore, I have deleted their comments. They serve no purpose except to incite more hatred and violence. As a peace worker, I am AGAINST ALL VIOLENCE!! I am working with peace professionals toward peaceful resolutions to conflict world-wide. We are working on implementing a federal Department of Peace in Canada, in partnership with other such campaigns in countries throughout the world.
To further this objective, I will be attending a National Strategy Meeting in Ottawa, Canada, early April of supporters of the Department of Peace Initiative.
This group includes such notables as:
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy,
Senator Douglas La Roche,
Prof. Glenn D. Paige,
Dr. Mary-Wynne Ashford,
Prof. Johan Galtung, and many others.
Some of the groups represented are:
Council of Canadians,
Canadian Pugwash Group,
Canadian Institute for Conflict Resolution,
Canadian Voice of Women for Peace,
Center for Global Nonviolence, Honolulu, Hawaii,
Civilian Peace Service Canada,
The Dalai Lama Foundation of Canada,
Nonviolent Peaceforce Canada,
World Conference on Religions for Peace,
Physicians for Global Survival,
Canadian Federation of University Women, and others, including a representative from the Green Party of Canada.
I am also working with my city to have Brampton join other cities throughout the world to become a ‘Peace City’.
So if you belong to ANY group which advocates violence, please do NOT waste your time by commenting here. You will definitely NOT find a sympathetic ear!!
February 9, 2007 at 2:31 am |
verbena19:
1. “please refrain from name-calling an being hateful”- that applies to you too. To say that Israel is an “apartheid state” and “racist” is name calling. To say that that it practices “ethnical cleansing” is an outward lie and slander. So we will stop name calling as soon as you stop – deal?
2. “ I do NOT promote hatred, violence, racism, anti-semitism, apartheid, wars.” Yes you do. By blindly accepting the Palestinian propaganda you do not promote peace. By not criticising their consistent and perpetual violence against Isrealies and Jews (I say “Israelies” because they have murdered many Arab Israelies too. By the way, they have also murdered more than a hundred foreign nationals in Israel) you let the Palestinians get away with it, you let them think that violence is justified. By not condeming – and in fact ignoring – internal Palestinian violence (and that includes not only Hamas/Fatah violence, but also the killing of about a 250 Palestinian “collaborators”)you endorse it.Your map does not show Israel. Instead there is only Palestine there. Do you suppose Israel will just disappear peacefully? You gotta be kidding. If you really care about the Palestinians you should stand up against their habit to resort to violence as the only mean to settle differences.
3. “And let me remind you that the atrocities perpetrated against the Jews during the Nazis was not the fault of the Palestinians… It does not give the Jews reason to do the likewise… Does anyone remember the hateful pogroms?? Kristellnacht??? “
HOW DARE YOU? Did the Jews in Germany fire rockets into German cities? Did they exploded in resteraunts, busses and Café’s thereby murdering thousands of men and women, children and seniors? Did they riot in the streets? Threw stones and Molotov bottles on passing cars? Entered a school full of children and shot to death dozens of them? Entered a house where a family was sleeping and shot the parents and children to death? Murdered German athletes on the Olympic Games? Kidnapped airplanes? I am asking because by comparing the Jews in Germany to the Palestinians this is exactly what you are implying. Well, I am holding my breath waiting for you to present the historical evidence for how the Jews attacked Germany, how they claimed it all to be theirs.
And now let me seriously ask you: what do you expect Israelies to do? Do you expect them to just die quietly when the Palestinians explode everywhere and constantly fire rockets at their cities? They have tried everything – they offered them a state, the Palestinians rejected, they pulled out of Gaza – and got the Hamas in power, a kidnapped soldier, and rockets on Sderot. Don’t they have the right to fight back?
4. “Real solutions can only be brought about by open dialogue and actually listening what the other ’side’ has to say… “ – well this is not quite what your “aparthaeid week” is about, isn’t it? I mean, please show me where is the part in your program where you listen to the “other side”? As I do not see any of the Israeli side represented there.
5. “No nation has the right to rule over another” – I’ll agree with you there, so why stick only to Israel? Why not go against China who rule over Tibet, or Turkey, who rule over half Cyprus? Why single Israel out? And you say you are not an antisemite? so why are you picking on Jews?
February 9, 2007 at 2:55 am |
Thank you for letting us know about all the events planned for this important week. For too long we have had to watch in silence as Palestinian rights get brazenly trampled on. As a teacher, I was appalled last year when the brilliant book by award winning children’s author Deborah Ellis – Three Wishes – about the stories of Israeli and Palestinian children were “censored” from school boards across Ontario with nary a cry of “freedom of speech”. I challenge all those who have commented against this protest week to read the book and find the “offensive” parts in it; my guess is that they wouldn’t be able to find anything but the truth about the contrast between the lives of Israeli and Palestinian children and the inhumane conditions that Palestinian children face each day. It is telling that while many of us see no issue with children as young as seven being educated about the horrors of the Holocaust, there is an outcry when children are exposed to the modern horrific realities of life for other peoples. Why do we give mere lip service to the powerful words “Never Again”?
This is one of the reasons why this week is so important. I will make sure other educators are informed about it. Thank you once again.
February 9, 2007 at 3:03 am |
verbena19:
1. “Don’t you think that the Palestinians should be able to rule themselves in their OWN LAND?” – I most certainly do. However, they do not seem to want that for themselves. Otherwise, how would you explain the fact that they have rejected each and every proposal for the division of land? In 1937, 1947, and again in 2000? And why have they launched, during the peace process called the “Oslo accords”, a deadly series of suicide explosions? Why have they used that process to gather amunition? Why were they so cynical?
2. You ask: “Why can’t they co-exist peacefully, side-by-side, each in their own country?? Why is this so impossible??” – well this is a question you should refer to the palestinians. About a year ago I watched a TV show (not sure which channel was that) that crystalized my view on these matters. It was a talk with four Canadians palestinians, most were well educated, one of them a lawyer from Osgoode hall, none of them oppressed or especialy miserable. I was stunned to hear that none of them – NOT EVEN ONE – was willing to accept Israel’s right to exist. They wanted all or nothing. That’s their guiding principle. You see, this why a peaceful coexistence is impossible. And on the other hand ALL and I repeat ALL the Israelies I met here at U of T (there are quite a few of them around here, you know) were willing to accept a two state solution, provided of course, it would end violence and hostilities.
“So who should call whom ‘anti-Semite/anti-Semitic’?” – yes, I know that arabs and jews are both Semites. The first time a French friend had told me how antisemitic the Muslims in Paris are – I laughed. I did not believe. And then I found out how popular is Hitler’s Men Kampf is in the arab world. And then I found that the Hamas’s charter cites the infamous antisemitic hoax “the protols of the elders of zion”, and that it is not the only one to do so. And then I stopped laughing. It might be easier if you just call them Jew-haters instead of antisemitic.
February 9, 2007 at 3:17 am |
Annamarie Says:
“There are many Jews living in Israel who do NOT agree with the terrible things being done in their name.” – yet those terrible things save their lives.
“As I keep repeating over and over again, most of the Palestinians want to live in peace in their homeland, free from oppression. They do NOT WANT violence.” – yet they elected Hamas, an organization advocating a genocide. Yet they danced on the roofs when Sadam fired rockets on Tel aviv and when almost 3000 people died in 9/11. That’s a strange way of displaying a will for peace, is it not?
“The only way peace can come about is through negotiated settlement which is equitable and just” – how can you discuss anything with someone who is willing to sucrifice his own well being, his own future as well as his children’s for the sacred purpose of wiping you off?
February 9, 2007 at 3:37 am |
Joe, you are asking too many questions for me to answer right now. Please give me the link to the Map you are referring to — the one with no state of Israel on it. I’ve looked, but I can’t see it. It is not in my post about the U of T events. Where did you find it? I really would like to know. A couple other commenters had mentioned it too.
No, I know that the Jews did not throw bombs, molotov-cocktails, etc. at the Germans. Yes, some of the Palestinians (and other oppressed Arabs in other places) are doing just that. And no, I do not agree with it. Killing innocent people is NOT the way to win one’s freedom. As for the Oslo Accord, that was a slap in the face of the Palestinians. You must know that they were arbitrarily displaced when the Israeli state was established in their midst. The Palestinians want more than merely limited autonomy in Gaza, West Bank, Occupied Territories.
Sajda, thank you for your comment. Indeed, the words “never again” should be more than lip-service. Ethnic cleansing and genocide are being carried out in many parts of the world — obviously the dreaded “never again” has never stopped.
February 9, 2007 at 3:41 am |
btw, Joe, if you read my previous posts, especially my Archives which are still posted on my old blog: http://verbena-19.blogspot.com you will see posts against many countries engaged in human rights abuses. Israel is not being ’singled out’.
February 9, 2007 at 5:26 am |
verbena 19:
“No, I know that the Jews did not throw bombs, molotov-cocktails, etc. at the Germans.” – so if you know the comparison with Nazi Germany is wrong – why are you making it???
If I were a jew I would be deeply insulted. The Jews in Germany were proud of their citizenship and contributed to Germany in so many ways. They were never violent. Many of them died in the WW1 as soldiers in the German army. Not to mention their cultural and scientific contribution. Can you even imagine a Palestinian sacrifying its life to protect Israel? Can you name ANY cultural contribution made by the palestinians to Israel or to any other country (I mean, except suicide bombing) ? Do you not see how redicolous your comparison is? How offensive? Methink you should apologize.
And please take account of these data before you make any further comparisons between Jews and Nazis:
From Wikipedia:
• “Mein Kampf sells many examples in England in areas with a large Arab population [1].
• An Arabic edition of Mein Kampf has been published by Bisan publishers in Lebanon.
• Mein Kampf is sixth on the Palestinian bestseller list[2] and a bestseller in the entire Arab world [3].
• A new Turkish edition was reported to be a bestseller in Turkey in 2005 [6] [7]. “
“As for the Oslo Accord, that was a slap in the face of the Palestinians.” – I never knew that the offer to have an independent state with half Jerusalem and a huge amount of money (I think it was 35 billion, but not sure) as compensation can be considred a slap in the face. Of course, it is a slap when you want ALL of the teritorry to yourself.
A senior leader in Fatah, Ziyad Abu Ein, admitted in an interview on Al-Alam TV that the second intifada was planned not months, but years in advance:
“there would have been no resistance in Palestine if not for Oslo. It was Oslo that strongly embraced the Palestinian resistance … If not for Oslo, there would have been no resistance. Throughout the occupied territories, we could not move a single pistol from one place to another. If not for Oslo, the weapons we got through Oslo, and if not for the “A” areas of the Palestinian Authority, if not for the training, the camps, the protection provided by Oslo, and if not for the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners through Oslo — this Palestinian resistance could not have carried out this great Palestinian Intifada, with which we confronted the Israeli occupation” (Al-Alam TV, July 4, translation courtesy of Middle East Media Review Institute (MEMRI), July 27).
In other words: the Palestinians were anything but sincere. They were cynically using the growth of the Israeli camp for peace. It seems to me more like Oslo was a slap on the face of the Israelies.
“that they were arbitrarily displaced when the Israeli state was established in their midst.”- you mean, they arbitrarily run away after they attacked the Jews and it didn’t work out.
February 9, 2007 at 5:28 am |
For your information-
Here are some of the stuff broadcasted on Palestinian TV:
“We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard
in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the
dead, as the prophet Mohammed said: ’The resurrection of the
dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them…’
We the Palestinians are the vanguard in this undertaking and in
this campaign, whether or not we want this…”(Palestinian TV,
July 28, 2000)
“Blessed is he who fights jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he
who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons
a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to
the depth of the Jews and says: ‘Allahu Akbar, blessed be Allah.’
Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in
their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset
collapsing on the heads of the Jews.” (Palestinian TV, June 8,
2001)
“O Allah, destroy America as it is controlled by Zionist Jews…
Allah will avenge, in the name of His Prophet, the colonialist
settlers who are the descendents of monkeys and pigs…“ [Ikrime
Sabri, Mufti of the Palestinian Authority, (from weekly sermon
in the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem). Voice of Palestine, July 11,
1997]
“Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason (Beirut al Massa, July 15, 1957).”
And for dessert, here the head of Hamas, Isma’il Haniya: “The language of blood is my language, and there is nothing but blood. I have shut my mouth to the art of speech, and let the machine gun do the talking. I let Al-Qassam do the talking, to turn the dens of the Jews into hell. “
Are these the people you support? Do these people want peace?
February 9, 2007 at 8:39 am |
No, those are not the people I support. Definitely NOT! Like I said in my previous comments, I do NOT support extremists of ANY stripe!! (Just as I am totally against those white supremacist extremists, the KKK who are still alive and well in the US, and any other group who advocates violence.) No, those people — ALL EXTREMISTS — thrive on discord, which is their ‘raison d’etre’. In a peaceful society, these people would soon become redundant, useless, without adherents. (This is exemplified by Bush’s war on Iraq and GWOT, which is actually serving the extremists, jihadists, making their actions self-fulfilling prophecies. Their violence becomes reactive: they are under siege and occupation, so they do what they feel is their only recourse: violent reaction. In all this violence between different sides, mostly innocent people become the victims. When their families see this, they are motivated by revenge, and the cycle of hatred and violence grows as more adherents are added… That is why the way Bush is waging his GWOT is totally useless, like his Iraq ’surge’… It only makes more enemies and of course, obscene amounts of profits for all the arms dealers, mercenaries, military contractors, Halliburton et al, and all other war-profiteers…But that is another topic… Sorry I’ve digressed)
I am supportive of a genuine two-state solution, where both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace. You must admit that the continually growing Israeli settlements on previously-agreed upon Palestinian lands contravenes those agreements. This blatant disregard by Israel for the rights of Palestinians gives rise to even more extremism, like those you mentioned above. Sadly, because the Palestinians see no improvement in their situation, some of them fall prey to these extremists who promise to help them. So you see, the cycle of violence is perpetuated. This is why it is so important to achieve positive results based on dialogue and peace. I cannot stress the importance of dialogue! If the Palestinians would see genuine results in their now hopeless situation, they would be less likely to listen/follow the extremists.
(Here in Canada, I know many people of Palestinian and other Arab backgrounds, as well as many who are Jewish. Contrary to popular belief, they do not all hate each other, and we have regular get-togethers to discuss the Palestinian situation among other issues. These friends propose the same solutions as what I am trying to get across. )
The extremists are not the majority of Palestinians. The majority of Palestinians want to live in peace.
Talks between Israel and the Palestinians must increase Palestinian confidence in a two-state solution, thereby elevating those Palestinians who advocate such a solution and undermining those who reject a permanent peace.
However, if the Jewish settlements and the security fence under construction are not dismantled, this will doom any chance for a durable peace based on the two-state solution.
I have a couple questions for you:
1. Have successive Israeli governments pursued a settlement policy in the West Bank intentionally designed to thwart the creation of an economically viable Palestinian state with secure, contiguous borders?
2. What do you think of the behaviour of some Jewish settlers cursing and spitting on their Arab neighbours? From what I have heard from people who have been there on many occasions, these are not the isolated incidents reported recently in the mass media.
3. Have you heard about some suggested racist policies such as dividing Jews and Arabs into homogenous states?
4. What about the widespread land theft by Israel of Palestinian lands, according to reports from Peace Now, and Israeli group advocating Palestinian selft-determination in the West Bank?
The so-called ’security fence’ weaves in and out, sometimes following the pre-1967 boundary, more often not. The fence is largely built on Palestinian land, separating Palestinians from Palestinians, dividing and compartmentalising them.
When EU Foreign Policy Chief Javier Solana visited Israel in January of this year, he was ’shocked’ when he saw the extent to which Jewish settlement and the security fence construction were cutting into land the Palestinians wanted, and needed, for a two-state solution. Solana urged Israelis to freeze West Bank settlements and stop construction of the fence.
I know that one of the biggest issues is the dramatic growth of Israeli settlements over the last three decades, together with the road systems to support them. Outside East Jerusalem, there were about 7,000 settlers in the Occupied Territory in 1977. Today, some 260,000 settlers live in the West Bank along with 2.5 million Palestinians. So more than 200 Israeli settlements occupy less than 40% of the land. But because their footprint does not reflect land set aside for security barriers, roads, utilities, the settlements control more than 40% of the land. This settlement process has regularly deprived Palestinians of basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to life and liberty of person, the right to work, the right to freedom of movement. Palestinians are prohibited from using, or even crossing, many key roads connecting the settlements with each other and Israel itself.
Anyway, you and I will not solve the deep-rooted ongoing problems in that historically tragic region. However, we can have some discussions, which may improve our understanding, if nothing else.
Perhaps you may better understand why I feel as I do, why I feel empathy for those Palestinians whose lives are so tragic, if you knew a little of my background:
You see, my own little country in Eastern Europe was ‘occupied’ by the boot of the Stalinist regime of Soviet Russia. No, we were not put into ghettoes, but our lives were made miserable nevertheless. We had not freedom of speech, no human rights, no civil liberties. The hated Secret Police would come at all hours, breaking down doors, taking people away for interrogation, some who were never returned or heard from again. Neighbours were turned against neighbours, made to spy on each other. Parents had to whisper for fear of being overheard by their children, who in turn may say the wrong thing to the wrong person. All private businessess, including small shops, were seized by the State. Life was an intolerable, proverbial hell. When we finally could take it no longer, we organised a revolt, urged by the West who promised to come to our aid. We had our revolt, many lives were lost, but the West failed to come. A couple hundred thousand fled their homeland and became refugees, displaced persons, throughout the world…
Although I was a little girl during that terrible time, the images of the horrors I have seen have left their indelible imprint forever etched in my memory. This is why I have always championed the cause of those who are oppressed, downtrodden, maligned, segregated, ostracised, dehumanized. This is why I feel such empathy for the Palestinian people. I also have much empathy for the Indigenous Peoples of our world who have been colonized, enslaved and brutally treated, dehumanized, ethnically-cleansed, displaced. The Conquest of the Americas was one of the bleakest chapters in the history of our humanity, along with the genocide of the Holocaust, South African apartheid, American/White Man’s slavery, and all the other inhuman acts we’ve perpetrated upon our fellow beings. Sadly, we have not learned from history, as evidenced by the same horrors we are perpetrating to this day. Canada’s First Nations People are still fighting to keep the little bit of land that remains to them and to have drinkable, safe water on more than 200 reserves. And the Palestinians are still struggling, while violence escalates everywhere. And the horror never ceases…
February 9, 2007 at 5:26 pm |
I am sorry I do not have the time for a longer reply, but I wonder: can’t you tell the difference between spitting (as reprehensible as it obviously is) and shooting a child sleeping in his bed or sitting in his parent’s car backseat? Or detonating yourself in disco full of youngsters?
You describe well your life under Stalinist regime, which have definetly made you desperate. But did it make you detonate yourself in Russian resaurants? Call for the Russians to be moved out of Russia? Did your people fire rockets at Russian cities?
I strongly resent the equation desperation= violence. The Jews in Europe had been subject to discrimination, pogroms and deportations, yet they have never became violent. This equation works only when it comes to Muslims, and you guys, instead of teaching them that this is no way to solve problems, turn a blind eye, understanding it, justifying it.
And in most cases simply ignoring it, as if its not there. As for the separation fence. I am always amazed by how seriously you treat every inconvenience caused to the Palestinians and on the other hand by how lightly you consider the lives of Jews. THE FENCE SAVES LIFES. It is a defensive measure, it does not kill. But of course, it’s Jews whose life are saved so who cares. I am truly sorry that it causes some inconveniences to Palestinians, but you have to understand that while the fence is temporary, the loss of life is permanent. If the Palestinians want nicer lives, they should perhaps consider to stop killing Jews, shouldn’t be that hard now, should it?
As for the settlements – no, I don’t think they should be there either, I would be happy if they were removed, but not while violence is taking place. And in any case, you and I both know that the settlements are not the issue. Israel suffered from terror attacks long before 1967, in the 1950s alone more than a thousand Israelis have been murdered by such attacks. The PLO, whose main goal had been to wipe Israel off through armed struggle was established in 1964, three years prior to the “occupation”, and Israel was attacked in 1967 not because it was an “occupier” but because it existed.
PS. I am still waiting for your apology concerning the equation of Palestinians to Jews under the Nazis. Thanks.
February 9, 2007 at 6:43 pm |
Now I am the one who does not have time for a longer reply, as I must go out.
As I’ve said before, violence is wrong and suicide bombing is not the way to settle issues. I agree with you there. Back in my days, we tried to change things by other means, believing that the “pen is mightier than the sword”. But ultimately that failed, that is why we had our revolution with its disastrous consequences.
Ok, I apologise for the equation of Palestinians to Jews under the Nazis. No, the Palestinians are not being gassed in death camps. My ‘equation’ was more analogous… What I was trying to say is that sadly those who were oppressed and persecuted in the past are now oppressing another group. This is wrong, whichever way you look at it. Sadly, humans do not learn the painful lessons of history.
I still disagree with you about the ’security fence’. Parts of it run through Palestinian land and it is divisive. I have never agreed with those who say: “good fences make good neighbours”. The fence is obviously a contentious issue and does it really make the Jews more secure? Or does it make the Palestinians feel more displaced, disenfranchised and confrontational?
I am an advocate and proponent of peace, and after all the violence, I still hold firmly to my belief that lasting peace can not be achieved through violence, at the end of a gun…. For peace to last, it must be achieved through peaceful means… I know this may not be a popular view during these violent times.
btw, I am still waiting for the link to that map you referred to, the one showing no state of Israel. I can not see it or find it anywhere in my post…
I have to run now, perhaps we can discuss more about this topic… You seem like an intelligent person, and it is good to have discussions even though we may not necessarily agree with one another. Perhaps if more people had these open discussions — dialogue — many issues would be resolved peacefully…
take care and best regards. Have a nice day.
Annamarie
February 9, 2007 at 8:51 pm |
Wow what a discussion we have here between Joe and Verbena19.
Joe, I am impressed with your quotes from Palestinian T.V. and others. If you could link to where you found them they would be very helpful in several of my own such arguments in the future. It is obvious that you have had more personal experiences with those who are prejudice against Jews and Israel than I, but even over the internet, such talk drives me to anger.
Verbena19, I admire that you wish for peace where ever possible, for the best of every civilization is found during times of prosperity and peace. However, I don’t know that peace is a viable option in all cases, at least, that is, until some sort of violence is used to bring about the necessary conditions to promote peace. Negotiations should always be given as many chances as possible to succeed, but when they fail, what then?
I guess the biggest trouble I have with your complaints about Israel, is that I am not hearing a viable solution for the current problems. I hear ‘don’t build a fence’ and ‘don’t invade Gaza’ and ‘don’t make checkpoints’, but I do not hear a solution that will protect the civilians in Israel. For instance, if the fence is dismantled, how then do we stop suicide bombers from killing people? From my link before, the facts are that even though there are fewer successful suicide bombers currently, the number of attempts at murdering civilians has gone up. And don’t tell me that if the fence is dismantled that there will no longer be a motivation for attacking, because remember that it was the surrounding Arabic countries that first attacked Israel just months after the country was formed. And also remember what is stated in Hamas’ charter, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” Say what you want about Israel’s actions, but they are pragmatic and they do work to prevent violence against their citizens.
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
One last thing, you mentioned that defense contractors were making obscene profits including Haliburton. That is a myth as all defense contractors get the same contract and do not make much NET profit. Read here for a complete debunking of that argument:
http://themiddleground.blogspot.com/2004/06/busting-conspiracy-theories-1-blood_30.html
And if you think that war contractors just make weapons to kill people, then I suggest that you read about the Marshal Plan after WWII and how war contractors rebuilt Europe. For that matter, read here about how the contractors in the Corps of Engineers is currently rebuilding Iraq. http://www.grd.usace.army.mil/
February 9, 2007 at 9:19 pm |
I got to say I love your comparisons. At first the Palestinians were equated with the Jews in Nazi Germany. Now you compare them to the First Nations People .Yeah, right. What a simplistic outlook: everything is like everything else.
To make it straightforward, let me point out just some of the differences between First Nations People and Palestinians. By contrast with the Palestinians, the First Nations People are not backed up financially by Iran, Saudi Arabia, the EU, the UN (UNWRA receives HUGE budgets), the US and Israel. Per capita, no other people in the whole world receive similar amounts. The Palestinians are world record holders in this respect. And have no mistake – they are far from being the poorest. There are about 80 countries poorer than them. By contrast with the Palestinians, First Nations are not armed to their teeth or politically backed by fifty something Muslim states. You see, it is not the Palestinians against Israelies, it is the whole Arab and Muslim world against Israel, the Palestinians being just the pawns. And here is another difference: First Nations People do not read Mein Kampf.
Just one last thing before I leave this thread: I am sure you have good intentions and mean well, as I am sure you are not anti-Semitic. The people you support however are anti-Semitic. Moreover, they do not share your beautiful ideals of equality and human rights. It only take one glance at the Palestinian authority to find that gays are being prosecuted (in many cases they flee to Israel, where they do have rights and protection), women and children abused and degraded, and often used as “human shields” (a practiced severely criticized by many human rights organizations), freedom of press and of speech has long been forgotten. It’s a shame you can’t see that. You wish to protect those who despise your own ideals, those who use your good intentions to their political ends.
February 9, 2007 at 10:31 pm |
Joe, you may find this article interesting. It’s about Kagame in Rwanda, but illustrates past tragedies are often exploited to justify committing current atrocities. The Jewish people have suffered tremendously but that doesn’t give them carte blanche to harm others.
The Palestinian people are currently suffering and the rest of the world simply blames them – all of them. Yes there are violent extremists, yes there is hatred, but the peaceful majority, the regular people, the children, the women… it is they who have the worse effects of this visited upon them. And they are blamed for their own suffering, denounced simply for who they are.
February 9, 2007 at 10:36 pm |
My comparison of the Palestinians with the First Nations is based on their shared history of having been dispossessed of their lands and treated as inferior people therein. Is that really so ’simplistic’? Perhaps.
As for military and financial support, everyone knows that the state of Israel has enormous backing of the US, both in funds and weapons.
Do you think that Israel’s bombing of Lebanon ‘back to the Stone Age’ was a justified response to the kidnapping of a couple soldiers? Do you think that destroying Lebanon’s infrastructure and polluting the surrounding Mediterrean was justified response??
The situation is dire and deplorable on all sides.. Obviously, something other than violence and military might is needed to arrive at a settlement that is fair to all. I do not know how this could be accomplished, but negotiations and dialogue with ALL involved parties would be a good start.
What do you think about the violent clashes now taking place because of Israel’s excavation close to the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, which is sacred to both Jews and Arabs?
For Arabs:
Site of Prophet Muhammad’s first prayers and ascent into Heaven, home to al-Aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock.
For Jews:
Site of first and second Temples and the rock on which Abraham offered his son as a sacrifice.
The compound, in the Old City in East Jerusalem – an area captured by Israel during the 1967 Middle East war – has regularly been a flashpoint for violence.
Honestly, when I read reports such as these, I feel quite hopeless about peace ever being achieved in that region, at least not in my lifetime.
And just to reiterate that I am not ‘anti-semitic’, I’ll tell you that my favourite uncle saved many Jewish lives during the Nazi terror, at great risk to his own life and that of his family.. In recognition of this, he was invited to visit Israel many, many years ago to be present at a tree-planting ceremony is his honour. My mother may still have the newspaper clipping, although this was a long time ago. My uncle died shortly thereafter. Just wanted to let you know…. (If I can manage to find a link about it, I’ll put it in here. I’d like to read it again anyway, and see his picture.)
Annamarie
February 9, 2007 at 10:39 pm |
Red Jenny, thank you for your comment to Joe and the article link. It underscores what I’ve been trying to explain here.
best regards,
Annamarie
February 10, 2007 at 3:43 am |
What do I think of the recent events in Jerusalem? Actually I am glad you asked. In 1967, for the first time in 1900 years, the Jews held the Temple Mount for a few hours. And what did they do right away? Returned it to the Muslims. Ever since then the place is run by the Muslim Wakf. Did you know that Jews and Christians are not allowed into Al- Aksa? It is under Israeli rule, yet Jews are not allowed in. The Israeli authorities cannot guarantee their safety. Taking into account the fact that under Jordanian rule most synagogues in the old city were desecrated, (and the same thing happened when Israel left Gaza recently – all synagogues were desecrated and burned. Have you seen the Jews riot over this? I know I haven’t) I think this feature displays well the Israeli sensitivity. Can you think of a church or synagogue where Muslims are not allowed in? Can you even imagine Christians or Jews attacking other people inside their holy place of worship? Yet this is exactly what Muslims do in Al- Aqza. They did the same during the second Intifada when they fortified in a church in Bethlehem, taking the priests hostage. They KNEW IDF will not attck a holy place. As I said before, they know how to take advantage of other people’s morals, and that includes yours.
Now to the point: The Israelies are fixing a bridge that was damaged in a snow storm two years ago. It crumbles, it has to be fixed. They assured the Wakf that the construction will not damage any part of the holy site, and even suggested placing video cameras, so that the Wakf can watch the construction and be assured that no harm is done. Yet the Wakf saw an opportunity for political and financial gains (they get lots of donations following such incidents, and their political status in the Muslim world gather strength). Nothing new about it. Every now and then they spread lies about the Jews wanting to take over the place. I hope you do realize its lies. After all, if the Jews wanted to take over, they could have done that a long time ago, and they wouldn’t give the place to the Wakf in the first place. I mean, if they fear the construction might harm the holy place, wouldn’t it make more sense to speak with the Israeli authorities, to find out exactly what is going to occur, and perhaps receive clarifications? But no, just like in the case of the Danish cartoons, the Pope’s speech and in Paris, the answer is always one: violence, violence and some more violence. BTW, I think the Israeli policemen were extremely restraint – no one was seriously wounded, and there were more injured policemen than rioters. That in itself speaks volumes. Am I to understand from your question that you think these riots were justified? But… but… but you are against violence, aren’t you?
As for Lebanon, I will just say shortly that I think the Israelies had full justification, under every possible law in the world to fight Lebanon. Moreover, I think they were too careful, too sensitive to human lives, letting the civilians know in advance where they are about to attack, giving them time to leave the place. Let me remind you – they did that on account of THEIR OWN civilians and soldiers, because in this way they lost the element of surprised and enabled Hizbollah to hit their civilian population harder. I have a friend in Beirut and he defined the bombing of the IDF as “clean” – no less. He says they knew exactly where Hizbollah were and hit only there. That’s the words of Lebanese, not mine.
Now you tell me what do you think about what Hizbollah is doing now to Lebanon? And also if you think Lebanon and UNIFIL are complying with UN decision to disarm Hizbollah.
February 10, 2007 at 3:58 am |
Red Jenny,
Please look into all my posts – I have never ONCE mentioned to Holocaust or used it as an excuse for anything. Not even once. Your link is therefore irrelevant.
No, the Jewish people suffering does not give them any rights other than that of having their own state, the one place where they can be safe from prosecution. They do not have a right to harm others; no one has that right UNLESS he is attacked. And unfortunately the Jews have been under a constant attack for many years now. I believe they have the right to defend themselves, and I am truly sorry for the Palestinian children. It is indeed not their fault that their parents are willing to sacrifice their future and well being for the dream of an Islamic state over all of Palestine. But just the same, it is not Israel’s fault, and it is not the Israeli children’s fault. Did you know that ever since the first Gulf war, when Israel was attacked by Iraq with Rockets that could have been chemical, every baby born in Israel receives a gas tent (it is replaced later on with a gas mask)? Did you know that every house build in Israel must have one room made of reinforced concrete and sealable for the case of a chemical or conventional attack? Show me one other country in the world that has to live like that. I wonder how come you do not feel for them as well.
February 10, 2007 at 4:01 am |
Oh, and I have another question for you Annmarie:
The week against Israeli apartheid includes a call to boycott Israel. I was wondering if you support that. Thanks.
February 10, 2007 at 5:20 am |
Bellerophon, yes I know that the solutions are not as simple as removing fences, but that would be a start as a show of good faith. Talks must resume with all sides sitting down at the negotiating table, and viable agreements proposed, discussed, drawn up, with an independent body (the UN?) overseeing the process and ensuring that all sides adhere to them.
This is why any process must include ALL sides, otherwise those left out may feel the right to disregard them.
But since the fence is such a highly contentious issue, it seems like a good point to start. Remember, it is not only keeping the Jews apart from the Palestinians, but it is also keeping Palestinians apart from each other — their neighbours, families and relatives, and often their jobs. It also runs through some Palestinian land. Then there are the ever-growing, encroaching settlements, which must be stopped, and dismantled, however painful that may be to those already living there, and the land given back to the Palestinians. Personally, I’d be inclined to give the Palestinians the houses along with the land if they wanted them, rather than wastefully bulldozing them, but that’s just how my mind works. (btw, this land encroachment is happening here in Canada with our Native people, whose already greatly reduced reservations are constantly being further gobbled up in the name of urban progress, in other words: housing, businesses, hydro plants, logging, mining, etc. for the ’settlers’. This has upset the Natives, and rightly so! We have stolen most of their land!! Successive governments have failed to address hundreds of long-outstanding land claims. This is deplorable!)
Perhaps if Palestinians did not feel dispossessed and alienated in their land, they would be more accepting of their Jewish neighbours, who in turn, should learn to treat the Palestinians with regard, respect, instead of inferior human beings. These things are mutual. Both sides must give before they can take. Teaching children not to hate the ‘other’ is also important. As it is now, children learn at a very early age to hate and fear the ‘other’, so that is all they know. As they grow up, this fear and hatred intensifies, creating deeper divisions, more hatred leading to violence, and the cycle starts all over again with each new generation…. The schools on both sides could be the venues for re-educating children, with joint organizations independent of governments overseeing and providing help/staff if needed. Re-educating the parents is imperative as well.
On the topic of school-children:
Here in Canada a smart group (don’t recall the name of the organisation) set up a summer camp for teenaged school-children from Israel and the Occupied Territories.
To make the long story short, at first these youngsters felt wary, reticent, fearful — and sometimes even hostile toward — the ‘other group’. After a mere 2-3 days of hiking through nature trails, canoeing, swimming, ball-playing, sharing meals, arts & crafts, open discussions, in other words interacting with each other, these teens got along surprisingly well. They surprised themselves! One of the main topics discussed was that they were taught to dislike, mistrust the ‘other’, whether taught explicitly or implicity, I do not remember, but nevertheless, that is what these children knew all their young lives: to distrust, dislike, even hate the ‘other’. When they found their ‘commonality’ through discussions and sharing the camp & its activities, they saw that neither group was much different from the ‘other’. They left the camp feeling very positive — some of them forming lasting friendships — they took this message back with them, promising to tell others back home of their experiences.
Just think what could be accomplished if these youngsters’ numbers were multiplied! If this could happen in a rural Canadian camp, could camps like these not be started back home?
I know all this sounds simplistic and idealistic. But sometimes the answers are not nearly as complicated as we think. Just remember that most people are really not all that different. They want and need the same things: shelter, food, clothing, medical care in time of sickness, and schooling for their children and the jobs to enable them to provide these necessities. If they are agrarian, they need their plot of land to work upon, or flock to tend.. People also want to be treated with dignity, decency, respect and equality. This is the backbone of all humans and is what unites us at our core. The people who have these basic human needs and rights will not want to risk losing them by waging war on others. So it is really not all that complicated.
But governments and our ‘esteemed leaders’ would like us to think otherwise. The military-industrial complex generates huge amounts of money for the ruling elite. They can’t fathom the profits they would lose by turning those machines of destructions into ‘ploughshares’ ( figuratively speaking).
Re your laudatory comment about Halliburton, military contractors: Yes, some of the effort has been/is being used for re-building and betterment, however, much is being used for destruction while bilking the taxpayer. It would take far too long for me to go into a discussion about that now.
regards,
Annamarie
February 10, 2007 at 1:15 pm |
Unfortunately the responses to Verbena’s post have ultimately proved few people are even willing to consider Israel is the aggressor in the Middle East.
For those wanting to offer solutions to the Middle East problems it is necessary to take the position of everyone involved into account. The mainstream media does not represent the wishes of all the Israelis and Palestinians. For too often the mainstream media is an active participant in propagating violence and subverting the truth.
Joe and anyone else interested, Please would you kindly take the time to read the following links.
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=16
I have been following the posts and as I reiterated earlier, the only way to find peace in the Middle East is through a negotiated settlement which benefits all involved. A settlement of this nature should be between Israel and the Palestinians, and not influenced by the US or anyone else.
In the late 1980s up to the mid 1990s South Africa was on the brink of civil war. The apartheid government was killing black South Africans and various political factions were fighting one another and the country was in a state of emergency.
Fortunately those in power had the foresight to realise the continuing violence would not solve the country’s problems and so they negotiated a settlement which was fair and equitable. The negotiations paved the way for democratic elections and the political violence ended soon after. Had these negotiations not been seen as just by the ANC, any deals would have been rejected. South Africa is by no means paradise, but the fundamental facts remain. Violence cannot solve problems.
The Israeli government says it is committed to keeping Israelis safe. This is a lie. What its policies of persecuting the Palestinians are doing is planting the seeds of hatred so successive Palestinian generations will be raised to hate Israelis. In turn these people, made desperate by their circumstances, will continue advocating the destruction of Israel and killing Israelis. Israelis, forced to live in increased fear, will respond by pressuring their government to act, resulting in more F16 bombs being dropped in the occupied territories and more people dying. The extremist Palestinian groups will use this to perpetuate the cycle of violence. The end result is more deaths on both sides of the conflict.
If the Israeli government is serious about peace it would negotiate on equal terms with the Palestinians. If the Palestinians are granted a just settlement, they will have no reason to continue their armed struggle against Israel. Then both sides can talk about a future of peace.
February 10, 2007 at 4:32 pm |
Annmarie,
You asked about the anti-terror fence. Well, I found these data for you: During the 34 months from the beginning of the violence in September 2000 until the construction of the first continuous segment of the security fence at the end of July 2003, Samaria-based terrorists carried out 73 attacks in which 293 Israelis were killed and 1950 wounded. In the 11 months between the erection of the first segment at the beginning of August 2003 and the end of June 2004, only three attacks were successful, and all three occurred in the first half of 2003.
Since construction of the fence began, the number of attacks has declined by more than 90%. The number of Israelis murdered and wounded has decreased by more than 70% and 85%, respectively, after erection of the fence.
Not a single Palestinian died because of the fence, and many terrorist who were caught and investigated admitted that the fence made their desire to harm Israeli civilians much harder to achieve. On November 11, 2006, Islamic Jihad leader Abdallah Ramadan Shalah said on Al-Manar TV the terrorist organizations had every intention of continuing suicide bombing attacks, but that their timing and the possibility of implementing them from the West Bank depended on other factors. “For example,” he said, “there is the separation fence, which is an obstacle to the resistance, and if it were not there the situation would be entirely different.”
And you think Israel should dismantle the fence? Tell me please, how many Israelis need to sacrifice their lives so that the Palestinians will feel less “occupied”? How many would you sacrifice for that purpose? Please provide a number. I am interested to know.
You say you are fin favour of a dialogue, well, strangely enough I agree with you here. But you can only have a dialogue with someone who wants a dialogue too; you cannot have a dialogue with someone who announces that “the sword in my word”. This is exactly what Ismail Henia, the elected Palestinian prime minister declared. Sorry, you cannot negotiate with a shark. You can surely give it a try though, let me know how it feels – that is, if you’ll survive the experience.
February 10, 2007 at 4:51 pm |
“Just remember that most people are really not all that different. They want and need the same things: shelter, food, clothing, medical care in time of sickness, and schooling for their children and the jobs to enable them to provide these necessities.”
sorry again I do not have the time to respond to your post, you have made up quite a bit over there, for example, how do you know that Israelies treat Palestinians as inferior? where did you get that from? they treat them as a danger, as hostile (can you blame them after all they have been through?)- not as inferior.
But this sentence is so ludicorous I must bitterly giggle. Do we indeed all want the same? If the Palestinians want shool for their children, then why do they use the billions of dollars they receive each year on explosives and rockets? why don’t they build schools, universities, hospitals, libraries? If they want a better future for their children, why are they so happy when their children detonate thenselves among Israelies? No, apparently we are not all the same. We have grown up to believe that all people mean well, yet the definition of “well” apparently changes from one culture to another.
Chief Palestinian Authority cleric Mufti Sheikh Ikrimeh Sabri stated, “We tell them, in as much as you love life, the Muslim loves death and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom.” Saudi Sheikh Abd Al-Muhsin Al-Qassem in Al-Madina added: “The Jews preached permissiveness and corruption, as they hid behind false slogans like freedom and equality, humanism and brotherhood… They are cowards in battle… they flee from death and fear fighting… They love life.”
Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah revealed in an interview after the recent prisoner swap between Israel and his group: “We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.”
No Annmarie, they love death, not life. We dont want the same things.
February 10, 2007 at 8:16 pm |
Joe, I hear what you are saying. But the Palestinians you describe so disparagingly are the extremists, not the average Palestinian who indeed does want the same things that most people want. These are the people I refer to, NOT the extremist. Admittedly, there are a many extremists among the Arabs, but extremists are also among the Jews… Not to mention white-supremacists in the US, EU and elsewhere…
“Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah revealed in an interview after the recent prisoner swap between Israel and his group: “We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.” ”
This is the extremist viewpoint. Everyday, average Palestinians/Arabs do not believe this. I cannot believe that an entire race of people “love death”! That is so contrary to human nature! And how would they have survived and propagated if indeed the majority of Arabs loved death more than life? Would they not be nearing extinction??
(I know, I know, you’re probably giggling again at my ‘naivete’…)
If what you say about the ’security fence’ is factual, then it shows that the peace process must be negotiated even more earnestly, and like Michael suggested, without US interference. Hatreds and divisions run so deep — and for a very long time — that to undo the damage will take earnest, concerted effort on ALL sides.
“Now you tell me what do you think about what Hizbollah is doing now to Lebanon? And also if you think Lebanon and UNIFIL are complying with UN decision to disarm Hizbollah.”
To tell you the truth, I don’t have an answer to that… As you have seen from my posts and comments, I am AGAINST violence, especially as a means to achieve peace. Perhaps some Lebanese feel that Hezbollah is their only protection… Not living there, I honestly do not know, so I must leave this question to those who do.
regards,
Annamarie
February 11, 2007 at 2:23 am |
Where to begin….
Verbena19, you continually refer to the people that Joe quotes as extremists that do not have the support of the ‘normal’ person. Yet, these people are the spiritual and governmental leaders in their countries. These leaders have all been quoted in Joe’s posts as stating that Israel should be destroyed.
Chief Palestinian Authority cleric Mufti Sheikh Ikrimeh Sabri
Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah
head of Hamas, Isma’il Haniya
A senior leader in Fatah, Ziyad Abu Ein
Now, here are a few more: (wikipedia sources)
–Hamas Chater: “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.”
–Hamas Government Official Dr Al-Zahar stated his “dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it…I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel). This dream will become real one day. I’m certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land”.
–Co-founder of Hamas Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Yassin, “The so-called peace path is not peace and it is not a substitute for jihad and resistance.”
–Co-founder of Hamas Dr. Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, “We will kill Jews everywhere. There will be no security for any Jews, those who came from America, Russia or anywhere.”
–A leader in the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade Maslama Thabet, “”We receive our instructions from Fatah. Our commander is Yasser Arafat himself.”
–Former Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei of Fatah, “We have clearly declared that the Aksa Martyrs Brigades are part of Fatah. We are committed to them and Fatah bears full responsibility for the group.”
–In the Palestinian parliamentary election of January 2006, 57% of the electorate voted for Hamas.
–Poll Feb 2006, ~56% of Palestinians favor suicide bombings against Israeli Civilians. ~44% thought suicide bombings were a good idea right then. 81% of Palestinians don’t think that Hamas is a terrorist group. 81% think Hamas are freedom fighters. 79% of Palestinians do not consider bombing Israeli buses and restaurants terrorism.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/poterror.html
–70% of Lebanese supported Hezbollah attacking and kidnapping Israeli soldiers. ~87% supported the efforts of Hezbollah in fighting Israel.
http://www.beirutcenter.info/default.asp?contentid=692&MenuID=46
I don’t know how you can continue saying that the majority of the population supports peace in the face of such statistics. On the other hand, can you point to one quote from a leader in the Israeli government that calls for the complete eradication of Palestine or the Palestinian people? Have you ever heard them say that their stated goal is the destruction of all Muslims?
February 11, 2007 at 3:03 am |
I see what you mean, Annamarie!
On this conflict, I have found that it is very difficult to have a dialogue. I shouldn’t worry about those negative comments. I don’t get them often at my site but when I do, they do not rattle me for behind those comments, I sense FEAR! Believe me, I do understand where that fear comes from and I do feel sad for the commentors. I wish that I could make the fear go away but I can’t.
I don’t know whether you know of Gilad Atzmon. I don’t agree with everything that he writes although he knows the situation very well. His latest piece on “Being and Tiime”, which you can find here, to me, is heart-wrenching.
And so, yes, I do understand the “hateful” comments. I can’t stop them and neither can you. In fact, I do not want to stop them. I do not think that I have the right to. Whenever I can, I provide alternative reasoning. Most of the time though I just let things be as both I and the commentor are beyond reach of each other’s arguments.
Take care! and bon courage!
February 11, 2007 at 9:21 am |
Bellerophon, you provide some compelling quotes and facts. However, I still maintain that most Palestinians want to live in peace if given the choice. They are people who are close to their land — their land is their soul. By taking away that ’soul’, they have lost their lives. Perhaps that is why so many of them no longer seem to care about sacrificing that which they had already lost…
Not being a Palestinian — or an Arab, or Jewish — I can only TRY to comprehend the incomprehensible. I fail to believe that violence is inherent in Arabs, as you and Joe imply. If it seems that way, there must be an underlying reason…
Perhaps the state of Israel as it is today should become truly democratic: a multi-cultural state where all people are proportionately represented in the governing of that state. Where everyone is equal: no more, no less. Where people are not categorised according to religion: ie. Christian, Muslim, Jew, atheist, agnostic, whatever, and not categorised according to race: Semite (Jew & Arab), Caucasian, African, Asian, etc…They are simply: citizens of Israel-Palestine (just an example), like people are in all ‘democratic’ countries… J Of course, not living in the region, I have no idea if the inhabitants would consider this, or if it has been considered and discarded as not viable, or if it’s simply the rambling thoughts of my tired mind…
FurGaia, thanks for the wonderful links. I’ve just read them, and bookmarked the articles for future reference and reading. It is rare to read such compelling papers by an obviously enlightened intellectual. Our world could use many more unprejudiced philosopher thinkers-peace seekers such as Atzmon.
Appreciate your comment and encouragement.
take care and best regards,
Annamarie
February 12, 2007 at 8:20 pm |
Oh Verbena, you never let the facts confuse you. You disregard all the quotes and statistics, and simply refuse to believe it. Well, what can I see – I give up. But please remeber that you were the one who asked for an intelligent debate, this means – among the rest – daeling with facts. From some reason you refuse to do that, and desperately cling to your somewhat naive belief that all humans are good. I would like to share that belief of yours, but alas – after the holoucast, Stalin, the killing fields etc. it seems no longer possible.
I have just two last comments for you, and that will be all. First – please note that Hassan Nassrallah might be an extrimist, but right now he is the most popular figure in the Muslim world. Ismail Henia might be an extremist as well – but he is the Palestinian prime minister, chosen by the MJORITY of palestinian voters. Sure, there are Israeli extrimists, as there are KKK members over here, in north america. But neither were chosen or admired by the majority of Israelis or americans. On the contrary – they are treated with contempt.
Secondly, your rant about Israel as being “undemocratic” reveals a disturbing level of ignorance. Not surprising for someone whith complete disregard for facts. Well here are the news for you: Israel is a democracy in which ALL CITIZENS are equal, no matter waht their religion is nor their ethnical background. There are more than a million Arabs who are isareli citizens, and they have about 12 representatives in the Israeli parliament. You are most invited to consult the proffesors from law school here, at U of T. some of them are teaching classes at Tel aviv University, so they know the Israeli law pretty well. The ONLY discrimination in Israeli law between Jews and Arabs is that Arabs are not obliged to serve in the army. They can volnteer, if they want (and many of them do, by the way, also gays and lesbian can serve in the Israeli army), but they are not obliged to do that. That is all. Please feel free to examine and verify this. Actually, I beg you to do that. As a point to begin with, I quote in the next post the testimony of Brigitte Gabriel, a Lebanese who had been to Israel.
And another thing: democracy and multiculturalism are not the same. A state can be a democracy without being multiculural. And if you haven’t heard the news yet – then multiculturalism failed.
PS. Please dont even try to hint that the Palestinians are attacking israel because it is not democratic enough. If that was the case they would first have to attack Egypt, Syria and Jordan – or are these countries considered democratic in your dictionary?
February 12, 2007 at 8:23 pm |
Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel, delivered at the Duke University Counter Terrorism Speak-Out
Friday, August 11th, 2006
I’m proud and honoured to stand here today, as a Lebanese speaking for
Israel , the only democracy in the Middle East . As someone who was raised
in an Arabic country, I want to give you a glimpse into the heart of the
Arabic world.
I was raised in Lebanon , where I was taught that the Jews were evil,
Israel was the devil, and the only time we will have peace in the Middle
East is when we kill all the Jews and drive them into the sea.
When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad on the Christians in
1975, they started massacring the Christians, city after city. I ended up
living in a bomb shelter underground from age 10 to 17, without
electricity, eating grass to live, and crawling under sniper bullets to a
spring to get water.
It was Israel who came to help the Christians in Lebanon . My mother was
wounded by a Moslem’s shell, and was taken into an Israeli hospital for
treatment. When we entered the emergency room, I was shocked at what I
saw. There were hundreds of people wounded, Moslems, Palestinians,
Christians, Lebanese, and Israeli soldiers lying on the floor. The doctors
treated everyone according to their injury. They treated my mother before
they treated the Israeli soldier lying next to her. They didn’t see
religion, they didn’t see political affiliation, they saw people in need
and they helped.
For the first time in my life I experienced a human quality that I know my
culture would not have shown to their enemy. I experienced the values of
the Israelis, who were able to love their enemy in their most trying
moments. I spent 22 days at that hospital. Those days changed my life and
the way I believe information, the way I listen to the radio or to
television. I realized I was sold a fabricated lie by my government, about
the Jews and Israel , that was so far from reality. I knew for fact that,
if I was a Jew standing in an Arab hospital, I would be lynched and thrown
over to the grounds, as shouts of joy of Allah Akbar, God is great, would
echo through the hospital and the surrounding streets.
I became friends with the families of the Israeli wounded soldiers: one in
particular Rina, her only child was wounded in his eyes.
One day I was visiting with her, and the Israeli army band came to play
national songs to lift the spirits of the wounded soldiers. As they
surrounded his bed playing a song about Jerusalem , Rina and I started
crying. I felt out of place and started waking out of the room, and this
mother holds my hand and pulls me back in without even looking at me.
She holds me crying and says: “it is not your fault”. We just stood there crying, holding each other’s hands.
What a contrast between her, a mother looking at her deformed 19 year old
only child, and still able to love me the enemy, and between a Moslem
mother who sends her son to blow himself up to smithereens just to kill a
few Jews or Christians.
Once upon a time, there was a special place in the lowest depths of hell
for anyone who would intentionally murder a child. Now, the intentional
murder of Israeli children is legitimized as Palestinian “armed struggle”.
However, once such behaviour is legitimized against Israel, it is
legitimized every where in the world, constrained by nothing more than the
subjective belief of people who would wrap themselves in dynamite and
nails for the purpose of killing children in the name of god.
Because the Palestinians have been encouraged to believe that murdering
innocent Israeli civilians is a legitimate tactic for advancing their
cause, the whole world now suffers from a plague of terrorism, from
Nairobi to New York, from Moscow to Madrid, from Bali to Beslan.
They blame suicide bombing on “desperation of occupation”. Let me tell you
the truth. The first major terror bombing committed by Arabs against the
Jewish state occurred ten weeks before Israel even became independent.
On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948 , in anticipation of Israel ’s
independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on Ben
Yehuda Street , in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem .
Fifty-four people were killed, and hundreds were wounded. Thus, it is
obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the “desperation” of
“occupation”, but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state.
So many times in history in the last 100 years, citizens have stood by and
done nothing, allowing evil to prevail. As America stood up against and
defeated communism, now it is time to stand up against the terror of
religious bigotry and intolerance. It’s time to all stand up, and support
and defend the state of Israel , which is the front line of the war
against terrorism.
February 12, 2007 at 10:14 pm |
Joe, thank you for your thought-provoking comments and the Brigitte Gabriel’s impassioned speech. Please know that I am not closed-minded, and am researching & studying this issue as best as time permits.
As an advocate of Peace, I am against ALL violence. I believe in peaceful resolutions to differences and conflicts.
You are correct in stating that democracy and multi-culturalism are not necessarily the same. Sometimes I don’t convey my thoughts as well as I’d like. ( Perhaps this is because I often think in several languages — as a consequence of which is that message comes out rather ambiguous, unclear.)
Anyway, you have given me much food for thought and contemplation. I still support the Palestinian’s desire to be free, but I do NOT support or condone the violent ways some are using in trying to achieve this — I have NEVER supported or condoned such egregious acts. Let me reiterate: I believe in PEACEFUL resolutions to differences and conflicts.
Violence ultimately begets more of the same.
Thank you for your illuminating, interesting, intelligent discussion of this contentious, divisive topic. I wish you well.
regards,
Annamarie
February 13, 2007 at 4:38 am |
Thank you Annmarie, it was an interesting discussion. I know you mean well,
Joe.
February 13, 2007 at 5:31 am |
Yes, it was, Joe.
Just one more question: What do you think about Jewish people who criticise Israel?
I am referring to the situation of the distinguished British historian Tony Judt who is Jewish. His lectures have been cancelled because of complaints by the ADL to the American Jewish Committee because his message was “too anti-Israel.
Prof. Judt defends his freedom of criticism of Israel with:
“All Jews are silenced by the requirement to be supportive of Israel, and all non-Jews are silenced by the fear of being thought anti-Semitic, and there is no conversation on the subject.”
Please read this article:
Link: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2010212,00.html
I would be interested to hear your honest thoughts on this, when you have the time…
Thanks!
best regards,
Annamarie
February 13, 2007 at 7:01 am |
I guess no one here, with all the back and forth and name-calling, has figured out that the real culprit is organized religion – period.
Religious faith is the only area in modern, western life which we put upon a pedestal and unquestioningly allow people to dilude themselves in beliefs for which they do not have to provide proof. Jews, Muslims and Christians and various forms of extremism attributable to all of them are what will be the undoing of society.
Anything done in the name of religion is OK because there is something untouchable about religious beliefs. Until we start having reasoned discourse about the problems in religious faith.
Read Dawkins, Harris et al.
February 13, 2007 at 7:53 am |
Wu, this is why I do not follow any particular religious beliefs.
Presently I am reading a compelling book by Canadian author Ronald Wright titled: “Stolen Continents: Conquest and Resistance in the Americas”. I have the 10th Anniversary Edition of this wonderful book. The regular edition is available on Amazon and you will see a picture of it on the left side of my page with links, inside reads, and reviews. I highly recommend it!
Ronald Wright writes his book about the Conquest of the Americas as seen through Indigenous eyes. He tells the terrible stories of how first the Conquistadors arrived and pillaged, plundered, destroyed, decimated the Native populations of South and Central America. He has obtained many ancient documents that vividly tell this sordid story. The Catholic Church had played a very active role in this holocaust against millions of Native Peoples. A Pope during that time (can’t recall his name now) magnanimously gave the conquered lands to Spain and Portugal. How can you give away something that is not yours???? All in the name of ‘bringing the true God to the heathens’!!
Then later, the British and French colonizers did the same to the Native Peoples of North America. This is a tragedy beyond compare!! Reading this book fills me with anger and despair.
These Christian zealots destroyed ancient cities and their civilisations, who by the way, were quite advanced, in harmony with their environment. Those whom they did not murder, they ‘converted’ and acculturated. While the Church tried to atone for these crimes against humanity in ‘modern times’, oppression and subjugation are ongoing to this day.
On the other side of the globe were the Crusades, the Inquisition; later the witch trials, burnings at stakes, beheadings, imprisonment of thinkers, and more such heinous acts, all perpetrated in the name of religion. (Anyone daring to question the status quo was branded a heretic, a crime punishable by death.)
This is why I have eschewed organised religion as soon as I was old enough to think, even though my mom tried to raise me as a ‘good Catholic’.
I don’t know if religious differences are at the root of the deeply rooted hatred between Jews and Arabs, but it may be a possibility that likely they won’t want to mention or admit. After all, it can’t be because of racial differences, since Jews and Arabs are of the same race: Semites. I had mentioned this in one of my comments above. I don’t remember if I had alluded to the possibility of religion playing a role. But I do think about it.
Organised religions are divisive, using an ‘our way is the right way’ — or only way — to set themselves and their adherents apart from those who follow different doctrines.
While there are some religious groups who do much good in the world — like the Quakers as one example, who were instrumental in helping slaves via the Underground Railroad, and instrumental in abolishing slavery, and the Unitarians who have no doctrine whatsoever accept the belief in the dignity and worth of EVERY PERSON — most religions are indeed devisive and exlusionary.
(I don’t know if I’m even making sense now, as the hour is very late and I am tired. Please read the short About page in my blog (link at top) and this will tell you a bit about where I’m coming from…. )
Bottom line of my long ramblings is that I agree with you. We should be having reasoned discourse about religious faith instead of the taboos associated with questioning the accepted norms.
take care and best regards,
Annamarie
February 13, 2007 at 7:57 am |
P.S. to Wu:
btw, I just quickly looked at your website. Very interesting, so I’m adding you to my blogroll. I’ll be checking out more of your stuff when I am not so tired.
best regards,
amd
February 14, 2007 at 3:32 am |
Thanks Annamarie. Saw your comment on my site. The authors I proposed as must-reads here are simply beginning to open up the notion of religious belief being held up to the same burden of proof as anything else.
The mere fact that no religion can withstand rigourous scrutiny means it must be discounted. Particularly Dawkins goes so far as to refer to religious belief as delusional because it is the belief in something for which no proof exists.
In any other area of life, faith in something requires proof, but we allow religion to be an excuse for all manner of inexcusable behaviour.
While you can easily argue that some religions have done more good than harm and that it’s true many fine acts have been done in the name of religion, it is still not an acceptable and rational reason for anything.
Living your life by two thousand year old doctrine, written by people who would appear virtually illiterate in most things we accept as truth now, simply because you ‘believe’ your soul will be rewarded in the next life, is irrational at best. It also allows unspeakable things to happen in its name.
Cheers and take care. Interesting blog.
February 14, 2007 at 4:14 am |
Wu, I fully agree with you. If you send me an email — just let me know it’s from you — I’ll send you the copy of a short letter I wrote to the CBC a couple weeks ago and their reply. I wrote it after I had watched an interview with Deepak Chopra. He was writing the same thing about organised religion in his new book that you and I are talking about. (Darn, I forgot where I wrote down the name of that book.) Anyway, you may have heard of it… After the interview program, CBC had asked for viewer opinions, so I sent them mine.
You can find my contact info on your site where I put my comment. It’s also up top of my site under Contact me. The may be different email address (I use several) but they are both mine.
Cheers to you too, and take care. Yours is an interesting blog too, so I’ve added it to my blogroll.
February 14, 2007 at 6:46 pm |
This entire discussion has been in interesting read, but it is nothing new. Everyone who has been involved in the Israeli-Palestinian issue has come across most of these arguments. Joe, you are very insightful and highly-informed. Thank you for your posts – I always grow in knowledge when I read them. Bellerophon, you are one highly intelligent person. I would love to listen to you debate any issue. Thank you for your posts. I have also linked your blog to mine – while a separate theme than mine, it’s a must read.
This issue will never end, I believe. It has existed since the world began. The evidence supporting Israel’s historical right to the land is monumental and universal (Christian, Jewish and secular). I am perpetually surprised at how this is ignored by the global populace. Recognizing the aggression delivered by the larger Arab world toward Israel seems an easy thing to see, yet much of the commenting world ignores it, skipping instead to the “brutal” responses by Israelis. These arguments have all been made academic, and have thus, unfortunately, been trivialized. Many who espouse the principles of free speech and human rights appear to be caught in a vortex that worships ideals instead of human life, common sense and rational thought.
An Israeli Arab friend of mine once stated (with his hand over his mouth as if secretly in fear of his life should he be heard saying it), that, “We, the rest of the world (not referring specifically to those living in Israel or Palestine, but to all of us) balance on Israel like a plate does on the head of a pin. If it didn’t, Israel, hardly the size of southern Ontario, surrounded by over 15 massive Arab nations that trump its size, wouldn’t command the magnitude of international disdain and attention that it does. We are all bound by Israel’s fate, he stated, even if we are not Jews. I have come to believe that we are growing ever more daft and suicidal as a nation when I see and hear our attempts to cut the pin out from under that plate, without the realization that, should that happen, the plate will invariably fall and shatter, and we, being on that plate, will be compromised. In a way, we are pining for our own demise by seeking, supporting, or not resisting, aggression against Israel and efforts to neutralize it.”
This speaks volumes to me. I do not believe that such people as Verbena-19 are anti-Semitic. I do feel they espouse true and virtuous principles, and that they genuinely want to make the world better through their efforts. I also feel that these efforts are necessary in many instances; often you will see Jews spearheading and participating in such efforts. But, I must agree with Joe when he says, “You wish to protect those who despise your own ideals, those who use your good intentions to their political ends.”
The psyche of the Muslim Arab cannot ever possibly be understood by someone who has not studied Koran. The secular humanist world might well want to excise any religious connotations of overtones from their discussions and work, but that is an exercise in futility. One can only understand precisely what fate Israel faces when one reads the Koran and comes intimate with the psychology of those who espouse its principles. Once this has been done, it becomes frightfully apparent that ideals like a “two-State solution” are not an option for Palestinians in their current state. There is a desired genocide brewing in the gut of the Middle East, and our philanthropic efforts in the name of human rights are only throwing coal to that fire.
Perhaps we should stop playing games with words, policies and humanist plights, and just get down to the root of all of this: Destroy the Jews. Is this not the ultimate goal? It has been for millennia. The Talmud extracts from the Torah the following wisdom: That there will be 4 nations that rise up against the Jew in the 6000 years of the world. The 1st is the Assyrian, who sought to destroy the body of the Jew. The Babylonians followed, seeking to destroy the culture and nationhood through dispersion. Next came the Greeks, who targeted the spirit of the Jew through a marriage of Gods in holy temples and a sort of shared spiritual worship. Finally, the Romans, called the dark empire, because they contain the mandates of all the previous nations. We are still in the shadow of the Roman Empire, with the West taking over the role for now. (True, despite the immense support for Israel from the USA, Jews still know that this fidelity will turn if it is necessary for it to do so. Few Jews feel as save in any other country as they do in Israel, even among the falling mortars and suicide bombings.). Interestingly, the line of Ishmael constitutes the final leg of the Roman Empire. It is a part of this Empire that seeks to exterminate the Jew in totality. Joe, your translations of Arab TV were very apropos in this respect.
We don’t seem to be able to find a single, unifying reason for this perpetual hatred (or endeavor to exterminate, in whatever other guised names it may assume). Perhaps the reason is beyond the visible or rational…perhaps we must look deeper. So then, let us do away with Israel. I’m sure if the borders were opened up and the right of return imposed it would only be a matter of time before Jews ceased to exist in Israel, and then only a little further until they were entirely eradicated. Where would this leave us? Well, the humanist advocates would turn to the numerous other issues they have committed themselves to. Some might even feel compelled to advocate for Jews at that time, but the underwhelming international support would likely make their cause a lot less flashy and popular – they’d likely not give it the gusto they are giving the current Palestinian issue. Perhaps they’d be no worse for wear? I won’t get into everything in their world that will come falling down as the “plate” crashes to the ground. One thing I suspect (and which many likely have overlooked) is that the Muslim mandate would now shift from annihilation of the Jew to the annihilation of the Christian or the secular invalid. I know, extremism is “bad” and not what is being supported here. Yes, but again, you must read the Koran. Unfortunately you cannot separate the actions we deem extremism from its perfectly rational mandate of world domination. The prey will become the predator. (Or the hidden predator will become revealed.)
Perhaps human rights advocates should shift more of their energy onto examining the Palestinian government, and what role it plays in the atrocious living conditions and dynamic of that region? More energy should also be spent on putting an end to the “extremist” factions that are helping to perpetuate the Palestinian issue, and then building up a healthy government that can work with Israel to deliver that everyone wants. It it’s really all about those suffering people who make up the majority of victims, and who don’t want violence, then get rid of the violent groups (for them) and give them a good government. Don’t just focus on condemning Israel. That’s how more is likely to be accomplished – perhaps that’s why it has not been done to its fullest! I’m surprised that this week’s Israel Apartheid event is not hosting any speakers who can expose that to us? Perhaps I’m not surprised.
February 15, 2007 at 12:53 am |
Essien, thank you for your comment. You make some astute observations and suggest intelligent means as starting points toward a possible solution… Much food for thought.
I realise this is a very complex issue with deep roots. Indeed, most of us don’t really understand the complexities. We human rights and peace advocates may be too simplistic in our approach and proposed solutions. I do not have answers…
What I do have is the honest desire to help make our world a better place for ALL — as trite and naive as this sounds. With that in mind, perhaps we should strive toward a better balance between idealism and pragmatism. We cannot have one without the other… Believe me, I am constantly striving toward this balance.
I have not attended the Israel Apartheid Week events, so I do not know if the ‘other’ side was/was not represented. I agree with you that to have an open, balanced dialogue ALL sides should be represented, especially in a setting such as the U of T.
Yes, more should be done to put an end to ‘extremists” on ALL sides. (There are some on both sides, you know.) Perhaps providing genuine help to average Palestinians would provide an alternative to the help they are now getting from ‘extremists’, so this may be a good place to start. Small town-hall-type meetings between Jews and Palestinians (maybe in school settings?) is something to think about. Having neighbours meet their neighbours from the ‘other side’ would open up dialogue and show that they are really not much different from one another. These similarities should be highlighted, not the ‘differences’, which are mainly religious, not racial. When people see that others are not ‘demons’ but more like themselves, acceptance comes easier. The way it is now, each group demonizes the other, thus perpetuating the hatred, fear, violence.
Changes begin at the grass-roots level. Politicians, government leaders and elites have their own agenda, which may not be representative of the common people, and often not beneficial to the ‘common good’. This is why the common people must be brought together, have discussions, learn about each other, and let their conjoined voices be heard in the voting booths and elsewhere. They must acknowledge that concerted efforts toward peaceful resolutions which provide compatible, non-combative co-existence, is necessary for the survival of all.
best regards,
Annamarie
February 15, 2007 at 3:21 pm |
I agree fully. I have a friend in Israel whose children are regularly part of a summer arts camp that brings together Israeli Jewish, Israeli Arab and Palestinian children to learn, create and present together. The subjects of their endeavors are always focused on themes espousing unity, brother-hood and respect. It is an admirable thing to see, and displays precisely the sort of initiative of which you speak.
One thing that appears clear is the corrosive role of religion when wedded to the running of a State. There has been much in-fighting between religious and secular Jews on this very issue. Divorcing religion from State politics seems fundamental to reaching what could be considered a civilized dynamic within a country’s boarders and in its international role. The exception, perhaps, is the central themes of justice and the rule of law that can be extracted and applied to all people regardless of religion or what other distinguishing factor appears to separate them from others, and I emphasize “appears”. This is indeed a very difficult thing to achieve in Islamic ruled countries. I trust that anyone who so tried to achieve this would be readily decapitated by the forces which act on behalf of the ruling Mulahs.
Religion, while perhaps good in many ways at its core, is so readily construed into a caustic contributor to numerous human injustices. Does this present a challenge when dealing with the Middle East? State and religion are inseparable (with the exception of a few States there in). In fact, much of the West’s fear, and indeed a good part of the Palestinian Charter (Hamas in particular) is derived directly there from. Is this an issue that human rights advocates such as yourself can tackle; it seems to indeed be at odds to maintaining an environment of human rights respect in these countries.
Last night in bed I thought to myself, while reflecting on this blog’s content, what the world would be like if Jews were excised from Israel (by whatever device). I would need to line up all the issues: technology, science, thought leadership, social policy, philanthropy, government, the origins of law, business, oil (a touchy subject) etc. Who would assume control of these items (or would they collapse), and what would be the ramifications to the rest of the world when that happened. I know it seems far fetched to play this thought game, but this is the kind of fear that sits in every Jew when considering the fragility of their existence on earth.
In yesterday’s National Post, former Liberal Justice minister Irwin Cotler was quoted as saying: “People believe that anti-Semitism as we used to know it is no longer the scourge it was…Yet at the same time there is a tsunami of new anti-Semitism that is virulent and sophisticated. It would deny the Jews a right to live as a nation, and has been dramatized by Iran’s announced ambition to obtain nuclear weapons so that it can wipe Israel off the map.” For every Jew this is the real threat, and it is not limited to Iran. Iran is simply being the most vocal about it, but it is on everyone’s agenda and mind. I am amazed at how little concern the international community pays to this danger. When a non-Jew thinks about Israel, they entertain ideas of various kinds that cater to their interest, whether pro or anti. When Jews think about Israel, the issue of importance it their life. Cotler noted (obviously) that “state-sanctioned incitement to genocide [has been met by Mr. Ahmadinejad being] feted as a celebrity at the UN rather than held to account.” Quite simply, the lives of the Jews are of far less importance to most people today. They, it seems, manage to pick themselves up and do far too well for their luck; and they are despised for it. In Cotler’s words, “There is a new paradigm out there regarding anti-Semitism, and that is why Jews are so fearful.” Can they be expected to think any other way but in that which maximizes their safety? No one else, after all, will. My concern about the movements such as yours Annamarie, is that they carve the way for this genocide to occur one day. The Middle East knows it. The UN knows it. And they love it. It is fundamentally good, true, but in its wake is a colossal, frightening bad. What does one do when the peace they are fighting for in a region is something that the controlling powers really do not want at all; something they would spend every ounce of energy making sure never happens?
A final thought. In war, land is won and lost. I am still confused at the following: In the 6 Day War of 1967 Israel was attacked by 3 (am I correct at saying 3?) Arab nations. All sides were upon them. They fought back and won; gaining land in the process. Now there is an outcry about that issue, and they are being forced to return that land…and if not they are viewed as such terrible people. Would this ever happen with any other country? That a people would cry about land they lost as aggressors, demanding that it be given back (it reminds me of children who’ve had their candy taken away and are crying for its return). How can we justify Israel agreeing to this? I really don’t understand this, from a rational perspective. I do understand it considering the general energy out there regarding Israel and Jews…but that is not a rational reason at all. It’s nauseating.
Regards,
Essien
February 15, 2007 at 8:44 pm |
Yes, Essien, it is disturbing and ‘nauseating’. I do not have the answers, and I do not purport to have them. When all is said and done, I wonder if peace will ever be attained in that entire region? By peace, I also mean respect for human rights of the individual…
I agree that religion should be taken out of the state. While some good has been done in the name of religion, most of the deeds have been inexcusably inhuman. Organised religion is exclusionary and divisive. In this vein, please see the post I put up yesterday about a documentary film being aired in Toronto’s Brunswick Cinema. It depicts a camp for very young Christian fundamentalist children in the US. When you view the film’s trailer, you will see the chilling resemblance of these ’soldiers of Christ’ to the Arab children being trained in jihadist camps. The article is titled: Jesus Camp (documentary)…”
Please view the trailer and let me know your thoughts. I find this ‘movement’ highly disturbing and outright scary. “Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war…”
This is not the way to combat the ideals of those who indoctrinate children in Arab extremist camps — this is merely a white-faced ‘Christian’ mirror image of those Arab children and just as dangerous. Don’t you think??
Regards,
Annamarie
February 15, 2007 at 8:47 pm |
P.S. That should read: This is merely a white-faced ‘Christian’ mirror image of those Arab children and their indoctrinators….”
February 16, 2007 at 1:43 am |
Interesting trailer indeed! It is frightening isn’t it. 80 million is a fair number of people. Perhaps there IS an armageddon on the horizon! God forbid.
February 16, 2007 at 6:11 pm |
I can’t wait to come to Saudi Arabia Aparteid Week! I think Israel should treat its minorities more like Muslim countries do and show the same respect for their religious symbols (the synagogues that were destroyed in “Gaza”?).
I think Sharia law is a good example for everyone. I support women’s rights in Saudi Arabia. We should debate honour killings in Jordan and Saudi. We should look at the rights of homosexuals in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt. Are there many gay rights activists in Syria? How about Eqypt?
Why are we bothering with Israel – let’s have a real good look at what Islam is contributing to the world today. That should be REALLY interesting.
February 16, 2007 at 11:10 pm |
Essien, yes it is very frightening indeed. Hope that armageddon does not happen anytime soon, although many people who read the Bible literally say it will, and are actually awaiting it. I am not one of those. But we may be in for some rough times ahead. I only hope that reason, logic, and sanity will prevail.
Steve, I will not go into a lengthy reply to you. Obviously you did not bother to read all the comments on this topic. We are not besmirching either Islam or Judaism here. In our comments, we are/were trying to have an intelligent discourse on some highly contentious issues.. We are not promoting hatred. There is certainly enough of that in the world!
February 18, 2007 at 11:31 pm |
Steve does bring up one important issue though, why aren’t we having a conversation about the human rights abuses in other countries where the situations are much worse. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t know of any event at U.T. devoted to examining the situation in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, or China for that matter.
I have mentioned before the plight of the Palestinian people in the Arab League countries, how they are refused citizenship and basic rights, but there are no protests for them.
February 18, 2007 at 11:40 pm |
Additionally, I know of no events about how anyone who is not Muslim is not allowed in Mecca. How, the number of Christians in Turkey have diminished to the point that they are barely measurable. How about a protest for the those in Tibet that are shot while attempting to see their religious leader. And finally, how about the plight of all women living under Sharia law. Rape is only provable by having FOUR male eyewitnesses. Here is a website that has a few examples of the justice system under Sharia law wrt women and infidelity.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_adul1.htm
My point here is not to point out that you should not be looking at Israel, but to point out that too much attention is applied to Israel when there are so many places where human rights violations take place, on a larger scale, and are more despicable but get no attention, no special events at universities, because it is not the ‘popular’ thing to protest.
February 19, 2007 at 12:55 am |
Bellerophon, I fully concur with you that ALL human rights violations should be — indeed must — be brought to the world’s attention and dealt with.
I am a member of Amnesty International, and whenever we hear of such violations, we do take action. We have fought to look into the disappearance of hundreds of women in Juarez, Mexico and countless human rights violations worldwide (Arab countries, Sudan, China & elsewhere), including the heinous stoning and deaths caused by application of Sharia law. Sharia law is deplorable, discriminates against women, and violates their human rights — an issue I especially espouse and support.. I personally have written numerous letters, and have made Amnesty aware of some instances.
As you may also be aware if you read my older posts — especially those on my old website which I now use for my Archives: http://verbena-19.blogspot.com — I strongly support human rights of Indigenous peoples, and indeed, strongly support human rights of ALL peoples..
I know that there are several ‘Stop Violence Against Women’ campaigns throughout the year, and I think U of T may be involved in some of them. I can’t see the universities ignoring this issue. Whenever I hear of such campaigns/demos/info discussions/action alerts I post them here. (Although there likely were a few that I may have missed due to lack of time.)
Please check out my posts here from time to time to find out more about such events.
Thanks for the religioustolerance.org link. I checked it out briefly, and I won’t be repetitious in telling you what I think of such deplorable, inhuman practices. The word ‘barbarous’ is not pejorative enough!!!
regards,
Annamarie
February 19, 2007 at 1:23 am |
P.S. to Bellerophon,
I just checked out your website. Quite interesting. I liked your post about the the activists from the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society protest ship Farley Mowat pursuing the Japanese whaling vessel, then getting rescued by them…. Their subsequent actions were terrible. Acid, smoke bombs, etc… While I am an environmentalist and conservationist — holding the view that we should live in balance with our planet — I totally abhor violence to achieve this ‘balance’. Indeed, like you said, those protesters lost the moral high ground.
btw, I did not see anywhere to post a comment. Is there a comments section and I just didn’t see it? Although you obviously lean more towards conservative while I am more liberal, I do like to read different views, so let me know where I can leave a comment in the future, ok?
amd
February 19, 2007 at 4:32 am |
I appreciate your visiting my site, unfortunately, as we are just getting started with the website, and the programmer has been exceptionally busy with his paying job, we have not yet gotten comments to work. We expect to have the whole format of the website redone in a couple of weeks with comments and all.
Yes, I always enjoy violent peace activists, the best oxymoron.
I see now why your arguments keep pointing back to abhoring all human rights violations, Amnesty International is a large organization that keeps tabs on all groups. However, does it not seem as if the Israel/Palestine issue gets more press and attention than it proportionally should? For instance, I cannot find a similar event as the one that began this discussion at Toronto for Saudi Arabia, or Iran. There are no street rallies or mass protests for those countries. When Saddam was still in power in Iraq, there were no mass protests against the atrocities he committed.
All this attention seems contrived, or engineered somehow. For while Israel has stayed in the grey area for sometime now, it has also been fighting for survival since its inception against all its neighbors. And other countries are guilty of far more. Its like there is fresh blood in the water, and it drives the sharkish protesters into a frenzy.
February 19, 2007 at 7:12 pm |
Deliciously true Bellerophon! This inescapable point that you present has been presented many times before; however, it is almost always conveniently overlooked, minimized or re-construed into something that supports the argument against Israel. I doubt there will ever be a direct answer to this pressing question; the askers and those being asked know the answer all too well – which is why it is avoided.
February 19, 2007 at 11:02 pm |
I honestly do not know the answer to why there were/are not protests against those regimes you’ve mentioned. Again, I can only refer back to Amnesty, and we do protest all human rights violations.
Perhaps the Palestinian issue is getting more attention lately because people on all sides — including Israeli Jews themselves — are bringing it to the forefront. There are many Jews in Israel (and elsewhere) who do not agree with many of Israel’s policies. It cannot be denied that Palestinians are not being treated fairly, justly, as equals. It also cannot be denied that in some Arab countries many members of the populace are mistreated and human rights are grossly violated.
However, because Israel purports to be/portrays itself to be/strives to be a ‘democracy’ , these issues gain more attention. I am guessing that this may be the reason, or at least one of them.
February 19, 2007 at 11:03 pm |
P.S. I agree that violent peace activists are an oxymoron.
February 20, 2007 at 5:09 am |
I think perhaps we have argued ourselves to a standstill.
I say that the undue attention to Israel as seen in the event at U.T. represents an unfairness as if the whole world seems to have it out for the Jews and Israel while ignoring more pressing matters.
You say that there are undeniable violations between the Israelis and Palestinians on both sides that should be resolved in the most peaceful way possible. You also see the other situations in the world that deserve the same attention, but for whatever reason this topic has gone to the forefront, it is not a detriment but an opportunity to solve this one case while the will exists to do so.
Though I respect your view point, I cannot fully agree, for I am too much a pragmatist. I see other situations in the world that are much worse, and, in such light, see the response to Israel as exaggerated and hypocritical. Additionally, I do not believe that the world will ever solve all its humanitarian crisis. Furthermore, I do not believe that you have a workable plan to solve the current small ones like in Israel/Palestine. Until I see plans for a solution that is attainable, I cannot support the peace at all costs mentality. There are too many unscrupulous people in the world who will take that opportunity to drive our freedoms from our society, or our lives from our bodies, and that simply is not acceptable.
As a student of history, I see that war is not something to be avoided at all costs. It is, rather, an unfortunate side effect of human nature, and sadly a necessary one all too often. There will always be those who cannot accept my way of life, and would venture bodily harm to see that I no longer maintain my freedom. The only deterant that has worked consistently is the return threat of greater bodily harm. As Lincoln in his second inaugural address stated,
“Both parties deprecated war; but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept war rather than let it perish. And the war came.”
It is such a precarious position we now hold, to gain such freedoms for the great majority of the population. Not so long ago, societies were such that the masses had no such freedoms, and tyrants continue to attempt to return to those days. As Reagan said,
“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”
Perhaps one day, in the distant future, mankind will have evolved to the point where mistreatment of another is as alien to them as the surface of the Moon is to us. I do not see this future being nearly soon enough to be relevant to my life, however, and I will not hold unrealistic expectations in waiting for this possibility to pass.
February 20, 2007 at 9:00 pm |
I agree with you. Sadly, I must also agree that it is highly unlikely that in our lifetime we will see that mankind has evolved to the point where mistreatment of another is alien. I wonder if we will ever evolve enough to reach this stage of our development. I am also given to pragmatism, and thus, pessimism in the long view. However, I cannot simply give up, not just yet anyway. Perhaps the time will come when I will pack up all my belongings and move away to some solitary place where my nearest neighbours would be the animals. ( I am actually considering this.) Oftentimes, I do feel that it is such an uphill battle that my puny efforts are useless… Just thought to let you know in case my blog is no longer up here…
take care and all the best. Each of us tries in our own small way to seek comprehension of the incomprehensible… (Is man’s inhumanity to man a part of our genetic makeup, or is this due to generations of indoctrination and learned responses?…. more questions without answers…)
regards,
Annamarie
P.S. let me know when you have your site up where you can have comments, ok?
February 21, 2007 at 8:20 pm |
Bellerophon, you are an incredible debater and your writing completely engaging. Have you any papers/essays that are available for public viewing? I think I would enjoy reading them, regardless the issue.
You said that Lincoln stated, “Both parties deprecated war; but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept war rather than let it perish. And the war came.” I see this reflected very much in the current issue there. The Israeli philosophy, intent and character itself is easily displayed in Golda Meir’s statement of so many years ago, “We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours.”
Here is an interesting fact Golda stated in 1969: “There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist. ” And yet this issue has become the single greatest issue of concern for the greater world community.
Peace? It is not of the same priority for Arab nations as it is for you Annamarie. As Golda said in 1957 (and the problem has not changed very much since then), “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. ” I fear this will never happen – consder Hamas’s perpetual insistance on not recognizing Israel in their Charter…not even one bit. If there was ever a desired 2-state solution, it would be evident there.
Interestingly, I read a comment in the post yesterday about the dangers that Christian Palestinians face living in Gaza and the West Bank. Their fate appears terribly bleak as this Muslim state tries to grow. Should it succeed these Christians’ lives will be at stake. Is this something into which Amnisty Int. has looked as well, considering that it is focussing so heavily on the region?
Essien
February 21, 2007 at 9:18 pm |
Thank you Essien for your intelligent thoughts. I will ask at our next Amnesty meeting about the issue of the Christian Palestinians. Better still, I will write them a letter and enquire…
I am afraid that Peace in that region will not be achieved for a very long time. Like I’ve said before, all sides have justifiable grievances, but none seem to want genuine peaceful dialogue to begin resolving their long-contentious issues. No there was not a Palestinian State per se, but the people living in those regions consider themselves rightful proprietors of those lands, regardless of the ‘official’ name of those lands… Again, I must reiterate that I do not have the answers — all I have is the idealistic desire to see people living in peace, especially the children whose plight stirs within me deep feelings of empathy and sorrow. In part, this is likely attributable to my early childhood, witnessing death and destruction when the people of my country rebelled against the Stalinist regime’s brutality, only to be mowed down by the Soviet tanks… These images still cause me ‘night terrors’, even after so many, many years…
I do not know whether or not you are aware, but interestingly enough, Jews themselves have been having often heated debates amongst themselves about the Israeli-Palestine situation. These debates are especially prevalent amongst British Jews who refer to themselves as ‘progressives’.
You can read more here:
1. Gilad Atzomon’s peacepalestine: http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com
2. http://www.willtotruth.com
I just chanced upon these two sites…
I also would be interested in reading some of Bellerophon’s essays, regardless of the subject matter. I have bookmarked his site, and I think I’d also put in a link to it on mine — if I haven’t, I will do so.
Take care and best regards,
Annamarie
February 21, 2007 at 10:07 pm |
The conflict within Israel is a challenge all onto itself Annamarie. It used to be Religious vs. Secular, but this has broken into various factions – it’s almost as though within each group there are supporters of Israel and those who do not support it. Indeed, it is even felt by some Jews that it s this conflict that is the original source of the problems in Israel and the danger the Jews face as a collective.
Now, I am not a religious man, but here is an interesting Biblical lesson taught in religious (Orthadox) synagogues (while one need not agree with the religious source, the insight is fascinating): There are only 2 fast days for Jews (full 25 hour fasting days – there are a number of half-day ones) – Yom Kippur and Tish A’ B’Av (I’ll call it TAB for short). TAB (The 9th day of the month of Av) is one of the most ominous days in the Jewish lunar calendar, as it coincides with many terrible events in Jewish history (and if you check it you’ll see it’s true…remember it’s a lunar calendar you’ll need to look at):
1. The sin of the spies caused God to decree that the Children of Israel who left Egypt would not be permitted to enter the land of Israel; only their children would be allowed to do so
2. The first Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586BCE on the 9th of Av
3. The second Temple was destroyed in 70CE by the Romans, and was accompanied by the spaughter of Rabbi Akiva (one of Judaism’s most noted sages), along with 24,000 of his students.
4. Betar, the last fortress to hold out against the Romans during the Bar Kochba revolt in the year 135, fell, sealing the fate of the Jewish people.
5. One year after the fall of Betar, the Temple area was plowed.
6. In 1492, King Ferdinand of Spain issued the expulsion decree, setting Tisha B’Av as the final date by which not a single Jew would be allowed to walk on Spanish soil. This was also the 1st day of the start of the Spanish Inquisition.
7. World War I – which began the downward slide to the Holocaust – began on Tisha B’av.
The lesson? Each of these events followed on the heels of something that was happening within the Jewish people – a separation of sorts where Jew pitted himself against Jew. The brotherhood and sisterhood of the Jews faltered, and they began fighting each other. From here is taught that these evils spiraled out of the actions that were already splitting up the Jew from his own oneness – what is called “Kol Israel.”
Interestingly, the reign of King David was one of peace – the longest period of peace for the Jews ever. Yet the Jews of Judea at that time in history were more idolatrous that ever. Idolatry is seen as the greates evil (and it is listed first in the 10 commandments, or utterances of God) by the Bible. Yet there was peace in this time. Under King Saul, who came before David, there was constant war and strife, yet the Jews in that era were more pious and far more devoted to the one God. Why the seeming paradox then? Because even in God’s eyes, the greatest of sins, idolatry, pales in its severity to strife between Jews. He would give peace and life in a time whee Jew was for Jew, but was willing to let that be taken away in the absence of that connection.
Today we see a terrible splitting within the ranks of Judaism. Many agree that the peace in the Middle East is 2nd on the agenda; it will never be reached if first Jews cannot come together on common ground and love each other as one.
Essien
February 21, 2007 at 10:38 pm |
Fascinating and very interesting, Essien! Thanks!
That is something I have neglected to consider. Glad you brought it to mind. This is why 2 brains are better than 1…
Now I have more to ponder upon…
regards,
Annamarie
February 22, 2007 at 8:57 pm |
Annamarie –
I find it incredible that you’re able to be so diplomatic having supported an event that was totally partisan and extreme just in title!
I am an Oxford graduate – another university that has been party to this event. There, as in your university, they have invited several extremist speakers from the Jewish/Israeli camp, each of whom have built a career on mistruths deriding Israel, on the basis that they will ‘balance’ the debate – presumably on grounds of their ethnicity alone.
I currently work for an investment bank who donate thousands of pounds a year to the university, as my family do personally. I am now working with others across the City of London to get such funding rescinded.
I have no intention of getting drawn into an intellectual debate with you – this is by no means a worthy forum. I would just urge those overseas who viewed this event as one-sided and irresponsable to do the same, until the begin universities take responsibility.
February 23, 2007 at 1:28 am |
Adam, thank you for your comments. While I don’t agree with you, I appreciate and welcome all views. Like you, I don’t have time now to ‘get into an intellectual debate’ either.
regards,
Annamarie
May 1, 2009 at 4:14 am |
Fast and the furious 4 the trailer…
Fast and the furious 4 …
May 10, 2009 at 8:02 pm |
Better “Israeli apartheid” than the total ethnic cleansing and genocide the so called “palestinians” and the rest of the muslims in the region have been trying to perform on Israel since 1947!
The best thing that Israel could do would be to move every Muzzie out of the country, including the West Bank and Gaza strip, and seal the borders.