Toronto: ISRAELI APARTHEID WEEK 2007: FEB 12-17
ISRAELI APARTHEID WEEK
Toronto, Ontario
February 12-17, 2007
www.endisraeliapartheid.net
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For the third consecutive year, Israeli Apartheid Week will take place in Toronto from February 12-17, 2007. This year we continue to work towards building a collective understanding of the Zionist ethnic cleansing, colonization and occupation of Palestine. The series of events will include nightly talks and presentations from some of the leading activists and analysts in the anti-apartheid movement such as Bonita Lawrence, Joel Kovel, Walter Lehn, and Jamal Zahalka. The week will culminate in a day of action on February 17th as part of the growing boycott, divestment, and sanctions campaign against Israeli Apartheid.
The apartheid analysis put forward during Israeli Apartheid Week in previous years has played an important role in raising awareness and disseminating information about Zionism, the Palestinian liberation struggle, as well as the connections with the Aboriginal sovereignty struggle on Turtle Island and the South African Anti-Apartheid movement.
Rapidly spreading on a global scale, this year, Israeli Apartheid Week will be taking place simultaneously in Toronto, Montreal, New York, Oxford, Cambridge and London.
As Israel and its global backers like “Canada” and the “United States” tighten the strangulation hold on the Palestinian people in an attempt to provoke Palestinian infighting; and while the Israeli military continues its brutal daily assault on Palestinian life, it is crucial that people in the rest of the world wake up to the apartheid nature of the Israeli state, and realize that it is our collective responsibility to expose and isolate this racist regime until apartheid is dismantled.
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Students Against Israeli Apartheid (SAIA) Proudly Presents: Israeli Apartheid Week 2007
*** Please visit www.endisraeliapartheid.net regularly for updates***
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Monday Feb 12th 2007
“Apartheid: Turtle Island, South Africa, Palestine”
Speakers: Bonita Lawrence, Shaheen Ariefdien, Hazem Jamjoum
Moderator: Judy Rebick
Location: Ryerson University (Main Building) LIB 72
Directions: 350 Victoria Street. Exit at Dundas Station. Walk East on Dundas, and then North on Victoria Street)
Time: 7pm
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Tuesday Feb 13th 2007 (2 events: 12pm and 7pm)
12pm:
Film Screening: “Kanehsatake: 270 Years of Resistance”
Location: Sidney Smith (room 212 
Directions: 100 St. George Street (Exit from St. George subway Station and walk South a little past Harbord)
Time: 12pm
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7pm:
“The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”
Speakers: Azada Rahi, Zac Smith, Issam Al Yamani
Moderator: Kole Kilibarda
Location: University of Toronto, Tanz Neuroscience Building, Room 6/7 (Theatre)
Directions: 6 Queen’s Park Crescent West (On the North-East Corner of College and Queen’s Park (right next to Queen’s Park Subway Station)
Time: 7pm
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Wednesday Feb 14th 2007 (2 events: 12pm and 7pm)
12pm:
RALLY AGAINST RACIST POLICE INACTION AND IMPUNITY!
Hundreds of Indigenous women have been murdered or have gone missing over the last 30 years. Today we come together to demonstrate against the complicity of the colonizer state and its institutions - police, RCMP, coroners offices and the courts, in the ongoing genocide against First Nations. Indigenous communities are over-policed and indigenous girls make up the fastest growing prison population yet their deaths go uninvestigated and their killers unpunished.
Organized by NO MORE SILENCE
Location: Outside Police headquarters at Bay and College
Directions: Exit at College Subway Station and walk half a block west.
Time: 12pm
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7pm:
“Apartheid in Present-day Palestine”
Speakers: Walter Lehn, Jon Elmer, Nimer Sultany
Moderator: Zein Ayoub
Location: University of Toronto, Tanz Neuroscience Building, Room 6/7 (Theatre)
Directions: 6 Queen’s Park Crescent West (On the North-East Corner of College and Queen’s Park (right next to Queen’s Park Subway Station)
Time: 7pm
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Thursday Feb 15th 2007, 7pm
“Ideologies of Genocide and Apartheid”
Speakers: Gabi Piterberg, Joel Kovel
Moderator: Navid Anvari
Location: University of Toronto, Tanz Neuroscience Building, Room 6/7 (Theatre)
Directions: 6 Queen’s Park Crescent West (On the North-East Corner of College and Queen’s Park (right next to Queen’s Park Subway Station)
Time: 7pm
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Friday Feb 16th 2007, 7pm
“Debunking the Myth of Israel as a Democracy”
Speaker: Jamal Zahalka
Moderator: Rafeef Ziadah
Location: OISE Auditorium (Ontario Institute of Secondary Education)
Directions: Next to St. George Subway Station (exit on Bedford Street), 252 Bloor Street West
Time: 7pm
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Saturday Feb 17th 2007 (2 events: 1pm and 7pm)
1pm:
BOYCOTT CHAPTERS/INDIGO DAY OF ACTION
Please join CAIA and allies to protest Israeli Apartheid and highlight the support it receives from the Heseg Foundation. Please visit www.caiaweb.org for more information about Heseg and the Chapters/Indigo connection.
Organized by the Coalition against Israeli Apartheid
Location: Israeli Consulate at 180 Bloor Street West
Directions: Exit at St. George Subway Station and walk East on Bloor St. till you get to Avenue Rd.
Time: 1pm
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7pm:
Join SAIA for TRIVIA NIGHT!
PLUS music by Rubin, Bona Mohammad, and many more!
Light refreshments will be served
Bring your family and friends - this is a child-friendly event
Most importantly…Bring your game!
Location: TBA
Time: 7pm
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PLEASE VISIT OUR WEBSITE FOR UPDATES WWW.ENDISRAELIAPARTHEID.NET
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February 7, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Dear CAIA, and other such “organizations” involved in this week…I wish to tell you that you people are the only ones who spread hate…And it sickens me to see you brainwash such large ammounts of support…I also wish to inform you that your events do not go unnoticed by the Jewish population and I can promise much protest, and opposition at each and every event you have planned..Don’t worry, we hear you shouting your hate speech, and we also hear you inciting genocide, and we will take ACTION!!! The Jewish people made a pledge after more than 6 MILLION of our people were massacred by hateful bastards like you, and that pledge was NEVER AGAIN! Never again will we allow ourselves to be slandered in the streets, Never again will we allow racist bigots like the CAIA stand up and declare us evil…..NEVER AGAIN will these acts go unpunished, unnoticed, and unanwsered!! You and your followers make me sick and I spit on the name CAIA, SAIA, and any other name that aligns themselves with the likes of TERRORIST supporting fuckers like yourselves..
Take Care, and may PEACE allign itself with the Muslim people, and other innocents you have in your grasp!!
February 7, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Hi, and thank for the informative website.
I did not know that the owners of Chapters/Indigo provided support for Israel.
Frankly, I had been boycotting Indigo because they did not want to sell Mark Steyn’s excellent book “America Alone”, about the dangers Islam poses to the entire civilized world.
However, having obtained the above information from your site, I will start to buy from Indigo once more. Indeed, it does seem that they sell Mr. Steyn’s book at this time.
Thanks again for the information, and have have a hateful week.
February 7, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Remember to talk at this so called conference about the genocide of Africans by Muslims in Darfur, the gassing of Kurds by Iraqis, the butchery of Iraqi Muslims by Iraqi Muslims every single day. Remember to also point out the glorious freedom of religion in Iran, Saudi Arabia. Oh, you might also discuss the 470th ceasefire between the murderers of Hamas and Fatah.
February 7, 2007 at 11:33 pm
The Jews have occupied the land of Israel continuously for the last 3300 years, and they are the only people to have done so. In recognition of that undeniable historic fact, all of “Palestine” was to be given to the Jews for a national homeland by a 1917 ruling of the League of Nations. Rich Arabic Oil Countries pressured Britain and steadily the Jews were betrayed by Britain’s administration of the mandate. By 1948, when the Jews finally are granted a homeland, three fourths of the original land had been parceled out to Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. Some would wonder why Israel didn’t protest.
Arab and Muslim governments and groups went to a conference against racism in Durban, South Africa and distributed racist literature, much of it modeled after Nazi and White Power material. Of course, this is no surprise as much of the Arab world (e.g., the Mufti of Jerusalem and Iraq in the 1930s) supported Adolph Hitler, attracted to his program of racism, death, and destruction.
In fact, racism is institutionalized under Islam–an institution known as “dhimmitude.” The oppression of women under Islam is illustrated in countries such as Islamo-fascist Iran and Afghanistan under the fascist Taliban. Women are assumed an evil temptation and are kept in heavy potato sacks. When Saddam Hussein failed to die fighting, many Arabs accused him of acting “like a women,” apparently the greatest insult they could think of.
February 7, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Have fun laying the groundwork for the next holocaust next week. rather than trying to actually work to solve the rampant corruption, greed, poverty, and ignorance that thrive in the palestinian state, you choose to use the same old scapegoat that ignorant, corrupt people have been using for hundreds of years, the Jews. Have fun inciting racial hatred and violence against the Jewish people, and trying to blame everyone else for your problems. In closing I would like to wish you Heil Hitler, Death To Israel, Death To America, yadda yadda yadda. Allahu Akbar!, you ignorant shitbags.
February 8, 2007 at 2:58 am
Well, I will definetly would like to resist the Apartheid. Let us start with some questions:
Q: How many arabs live in Israel, with full rights as Iraeli citizens? How many are in the goernment?
Q: How many Jews live in Gaza (a palistine state since august 2005)as palistinian citizens? How many are in the palastinian government?
Q: How many Jews are living in Jordan, with full rights as citizens? How many in Syria? In Lebanon?
Q: Can you show me ONE Jewish minister or parliament member in ONE of the 22 Arab states?
Q: What does the word Aparthied mean?
Q: Which state is Apartheid, Israel or Gaza (palistine)? Israel or Jordan? Israel or Saudi Arabia?
So, will you join my resistance against the Arabic Apartheid?
February 8, 2007 at 4:00 am
While I read all opinions expressed in comments here, please refrain from name-calling an being hateful. If you read my posts and the About page, you will see that I do NOT promote hatred, violence, racism, anti-semitism, apartheid, wars, or anything else that is detrimental to individuals or a race/religious group. Quite the contrary!
I am for HUMAN RIGHTS for ALL PEOPLE!! This includes Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Indigenous People/Aboriginals, etc… regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation. I support ALL LIFE on our planet, for ALL LIFE COMES FROM THE SAME SOURCE!!!
Palestinians have the right to live in their OWN land, just as Jews have the right to live in theirs. No one is inferior/superior to the other. Atrocities have been perpetrated against the Jews, but sadly, now some of them are doing the same to the Palestinians and others… Whichever way you try to justify this, it is still not right.
There was a post I put up a few days ago about a Jewish woman and her thoughts about this. She had family who were in concentration camps, and others who were with the Resistance, so in my humble opinion, she knows of what she speaks…
That is all I ask from my commenters: know of what you speak. Please do not be so quick to hate; open your minds; and try to suggest valid solutions through dialogue… And let me remind you that the atrocities perpetrated against the Jews during the Nazis was not the fault of the Palestinians… It does not give the Jews reason to do the likewise… Does anyone remember the hateful pogroms?? Kristellnacht???
Hatred and violence are self-perpetuating and ultimately solve nothing, only bring more of the same… Tragically, it is the innocents who suffer the most, while the those in power get rich on their tragedies… Real solutions can only be brought about by open dialogue and actually listening what the other ’side’ has to say… Grievances must be addressed and agreements must be kept.
No nation has the right to rule over another; no religious group has the right to enslave those whose beliefs differ — no race or religious belief is superior to another… Do the vituperative commenters hear this???
February 8, 2007 at 4:31 am
As a U of T graduate I’m saddened but not surprised at this university allowing such things to take place. It makes me ashamed to have been educated there and to be a Canadian. If you allow this to happen then you must allow Christian gatherings unhindered as well no matter how offensive that may seem to you. Why not allow a showing of “Obsession” as part of a series against Islamic extremists? Surely, you’re against terrorism. Why not allow people like Brigitte Gabriel to speak on her experiences when Muslims and Christians warred in Lebanon? How about allowing American soldiers tell it like it is in Iraq instead of hearing certain media reports? There’s always another side. Someone’s terrorist is someone else’s freedom fighter. It’s only fair to be balanced, unless, of course, you are decided on what that is.
February 8, 2007 at 4:36 am
There is no “Palestine” or “Palestinians”! There has never been a Palestinian country, language, culture or people. Israel was re-named Palestine by the Romans and has no connection to the Arabs. Jews were in fact the first people to be called Palestinians because that is the name that was given to their homeland. Only in the 1960’s did Arabs start calling themsleves “Palestinians” for propaganda purposes.
Even the co-founder of the Plo admitted that the “Palestinian people” were a fraud. Arabs are occupying Jewish land in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. All those places were part of ancient Israel.
Jews have always been willing to share the land with the immigrant Arabs, whose ancestors came from Arabia, but the Arabs have only responded with violence. They raise their children to hate and murder. Israel has no option but to defend itself from such barbaric people.
I urge all Israel-haters to boycott Israel. You would have to throw away your computer since a large amount of computer technology is invented in Israel. Also throw away your cellphone, certain medicines, etc. I would boycott Arab/Muslim products but there’s nothing to boycott!
http://www.Israel21C.com
February 8, 2007 at 6:00 am
Are you commenters not hearing me? Let me reiterate:
I am NOT anti-semite, anti-Jewish or anti-anyone who is just and respects the human rights, civil liberties, dignity, right-to-exist-and-live-in-peace, and HUMANness of others!
I AM ‘anti’ (against) any group/race/religion/gender treating ANY OTHER group/race/religion/gender as ‘less than’, meaning: lesser human beings.
Therefore, I AM ‘anti’ (against) bigotry, racism, discrimination, injustice, slavery, dehuminization, degradation, apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing, brutality, torture, imperialism, sexism, exploitation, terrorism, wars …. and ALL the other horrible acts we human beings perpetrate upon our fellow human beings. That’s it in a nutshell! So you may continue with your vituperative attacks, or you may have rational discussions. It is up to you!
February 8, 2007 at 7:31 am
regarding the claim that israel is an APARTHEID state - there are 1 million israeli-arabs living inside israel (67 borders). they enjoy full rights as citizens , even though there is not much love between jews and arabs. recently, an arab minister was appointed to the government. the arab citizens enjoy more civil rights than there brothers and sisters in arab countries, under arab rule.
you show pictures of palestinians under “oppression” in the west bank and gaza but give no context - the barriers, checkpoints and walls were not esteblished for our pleasure. they are a measure of stopping the palestinian terror, which took a heavy toll on our civilian population. don’t forget - there was a peace process up until 2000, when the palestinians launched a surprise attack on us and started a campaign of terror (all because they didn’t want a two state solution, as seen in the posters of the hate week mentioned above).
regarding ETHNIC CLEANSING - when you discuss the ‘nakba’ please make sure you mention the ethnic cleansing of nearly 1 million jews from ARAB countries in 1948-49. my family had to escape from iraq after being threatened, and than the arabs took control of their land and property. it seems to me that your side is much better at ethnic cleansing…
it also seems to me you are planning a new athnic cleansing when i see in you posters that israel is WIPED OFF the map.
stop blaming us for all your problems! and stop inciting to racism and hate in the mask of human rights!
February 8, 2007 at 7:53 am
I don’t see a pogrom anywhere in the schedule. When is time set aside for the beating and murder of some Jews on campus? I’m sure U of T wouldn’t have any problem with that sort of activity, being in the spirit of freedom of expression of the participants’ murderous hatred of Jews.
February 8, 2007 at 8:38 am
Can we really not have an open, thoughtful debate about this issue? Why must you resort to snide remarks, Stacey?
Nimrod, I can understand you better: at least you explain why you feel as you do.
I’ve been in groups where BOTH sides were represented and we indeed had interesting, open, thoughtful discussions.
All I ask is that you keep an open mind. It is obvious that the Palestinians have valid grievances, and they also should be heard. No one is talking about ‘pogroms’ or wanting to ‘beat and murder some Jews on campus’! That kind of inane verbiage is what incites hatred and violence.
Don’t you think that the Palestinians should be able to rule themselves in their OWN LAND? Why must they be chattels of Israel? Why can’t they co-exist peacefully, side-by-side, each in their own country?? Why is this so impossible??
I am surprised that none of you seem to know that ‘Semites’ are members of any of the peoples supposedly descended from Shem, son of Noah (Gen. 10:21 ff.) including the Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Babylonians and Phoenicians. Semitic is an adjective, of or relating to a group of languages including Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic, and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician, Assyrian and Babylonian, constituting a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family. They are characterized by internal vowel changes (ablaut) distinguishing related words…
So who should call whom ‘anti-Semite/anti-Semitic’? Don’t you see that you are all related, as indeed the whole human race is related, regardless of the shade of our skin or our religious (or non-religious) persuasion? What is it that really divides us?? Perhaps it is our own fear and ignorance…
February 8, 2007 at 1:01 pm
I understand the need for freedom of speech on campus and therefore do not advocate or expect the University to shut down the event. However, I am saddened that such an event would ever take place or would have enough support to be more than a token protest by a few radicals. It seems today that everywhere you look, Israel is the problem for all, and serious discussion of ‘wiping Israel of the map’ is prevalent.
Your schedule mentions such titles as “Apartheid: Turtle Island, South Africa, Palestine” and “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” and “Apartheid in Present-day Palestine” and “Debunking the Myth of Israel as a Democracy”. To these event I will address two points.
The first, which I believe just about ever post so far has attempted to draw attention, is the fact that there is no corresponding discussions of similar events in non-Jewish countries. For instance, Nimrod mentioned his family being run out of Iraq because he was Jewish, and such attacks against Jewish families were and are still a great travesty that has caused the Jewish population in in Arabic countries such as Egypt to drop from 75,000 to 100. Just look at Wikipedia, “Jews in Arab lands have been reduced by more than 99% since 1948 [due to] discrimination, harassment, persecution, and financial confiscation on the part of the majority population and/or government agencies.”
Secondly, if your constituents are so concerned for the well being of the Palestinian people, then perhaps you should be directing your anger at Egypt, Lebenon, Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. The camps there are essentially concentration camps for the refugees are not allowed to hold office, vote, have a job, own property, or any other rights to citizenship. Again off of Wikipedia, “The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) “to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland.” The only, I emphasize this, ONLY two countries in the Middle East to grant Palestinians citizenship are Jordan and Israel. The rest of the Palestinians can rot for eternity for all the Muslim nations care while Israel has given them full rights and positions in government. I fully recommend you read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees#Treatment_in_Arab_countries
One final point I wish to make; no doubt during the conference’s many discussions, the issue of the wall will come up as an ‘apartheid’ act. To this I would challenge that first and foremost, the wall would not exist if suicide bombers were not charging across the border to kill as many Jews as possible. Insofar as to this purpose, the was has served admirably, according IDF spokeswoman Meir, “While successful suicide bombings are at a low, the number of attempts is rising, she said. The Israeli army arrested 187 potential suicide bombers last year, up from 96 in 2005.” And so, there would be no wall if the Palestinians could just stop trying to blow themselves up everyday. http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/16429529.htm
And the final challenge with regard to the wall is that, I would argue that the wall represents what the Palestinian people want; their own nation. Once the wall is complete, there will be an effective two state solution with a very real border separating the two nations. But, I know that the two state solution is not the real issue for that has been tried before at Camp David in 2000 which was unsatisfactory for Arafat. Even though he would gain 95% of the lands lost in the Six Day War, he through it aside for the agreement would mean that there would be no destruction of Israel.
I could continue with more arguments, but I fear there is a length limit on these posts and do not wish to dissuade readers with my overabundance of words. I invite all to read as I have here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_peace_process
February 8, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Think about Rachel Corrie, racism, home demolitions, international law, cluster bombs, massacres at Sabra & Shatilla, and the terrorism implicit in the threat of nuclear bombs. Does anyone here agree with the bombing of UN outposts and refugee camps and the intentional creation of a massive oil slick in the Mediterranean last summer?
You can find the following quote in Volume 9, Issue 8 of “Frontline” (see http://www.thehindu.com):
The Nazification of Israel
By brazenly resorting to Nazi-style rhetoric and methods of persecution in Palestine, Israel, with the consent of the majority of its own people and the unlimited support of the United States, perpetrates the kind of crimes that the Jewish state claims as the raison d’etre of its own creation in 1948.
Or you can read the March 2005 press release of Human Rights Watch at:
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/RMOI-6AD82D?OpenDocument&cc=pse . Part of its statement reads:
Human rights concerns for the 61st Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights
Objective
Every year the Commission on Human Rights adopts several resolutions condemning Israel for abuses against Palestinians. As outlined below, Israel continues to commit serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law which deserve condemnation, notably the dire humanitarian impact of the wall and other forms of closure that amount to collective punishment.
Yes, the statement also speaks of Palestinian wrongdoings.
February 8, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Verbena, thank you for your blog. You have my full support for what you are promoting. The State of Israel continues to persecute and terrorise the Palestinians by depriving them of the right to live peacefully in their own homeland.
Israel has confined the Palestinians to modern day concentration camps in Gaza and the West Bank. The people living in these places face daily humiliation at Israeli check points where they line up for hours or days before being refused to allow to continue their journey. They are denied medical care even in emergencies. Israel’s apartheid wall has resulted in land being confiscated from Palestinians and with this land the livelihood of countless families.
The Israeli army makes no distinction between civilians or soldiers in its operations. It routinely shells Palestinian areas killing and wounding men, women and children. What is happening in the Gaza and the West Bank should be unequivocally condemned. It is a crime against humanity.
The victims in this cycle of violence are also Israelis. Suicide bombings by Palestinians cause death, destruction and misery. These bombings too deserve the condemnation they are accorded.
The greatest tragedy in the conflict is the loss of human life and unfortunately the Israeli government doesn’t appear to want to a resolution to the conflict. A settlement is only possible when the Palestinians have their own country where they can live with dignity and in peace. Countless ‘peace’ agreements have been drawn up in the past, and rejected by the Palestinians, according to the media. These ‘agreements’ leave the Palestinians no choice but to reject them as they favour Israel at the expense of the Palestinians.
The violence will continue needlessly if a negotiated settlement is not reached. More Palestinians and Israelis will die; this is not the solution.
This has nothing to do with being anti-semitic or anti-muslim. What is going on is oppression in its worst form.
A relative of mine who worked in Israel recounted what he experienced when he was stopped at an Israeli check point. The Israeli soldier started questioning and he replied to the soldier “My parents told me this is what it was like in Europe under Nazi occupation, the check points and the questions,” After hearing this the soldier let him proceed.
February 8, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Hello,
When you say you are not anti-semitic (and please stop with the talk about jews, arabs etc being semitic. Were the nazi’s trying to murder all arabs? Of course not, they wanted to kill all jews, with help from their jihadi friends in Bosnia and “Palestine”
why are you promoting your events with a poster showing no Israeli state anymore. Is that what you mean by “Palestinians” ruling their own land? They already have their own land and that is called Jordan.
Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years and are not an imperialistic cancer or whatever they are called these days.
I agree with you that we are all related regardless of skin etc. But for me that is the reason why I cannot support the “Palestinian” death cult anymore. Why not support the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afhanistan, http://www.rawa.org or the Organisation for Women’s Freedom in Iraq, http://www.equalityiniraq.com. These groups deserve support, not the PLO, Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah and all other extreme rightwing groups that fight against Israel.
When the Jews lay down their arms they will be destroyed tomorrow. When the jihadi lay down their arms, there will be peace tomorrow.
February 8, 2007 at 8:33 pm
Michael, thank you for your comment: it is the first balanced one I’ve heard here so far…
I am amazed at how many people are unwilling to admit Israel’s fault in this ongoing conflict.
Robert, tragically, it is the innocents on both sides who suffer the most. I’ve talked to people on ‘both sides’ and all they basically want is to live in peace and dignity. That is all. Most people on both sides don’t want walls, bulldozing of homes, wars, fighting amongst themselves and their neighbours, and all the other horrors …. There are many Jews living in Israel who do NOT agree with the terrible things being done in their name.
No, I am not supportive of any ‘death cults’, and yes, I am already a supporter of RAWA, MADRE, and other similar organizations… If you’d read more of my posts, you would have seen this…
I also think you are wrong when you imply that Peace can only come about it the Arabs (you call them ‘jihadi’
lay down their arms, while the Jews keep theirs because otherwise they “will be destroyed tomorrow”. I disagree with this. As I keep repeating over and over again, most of the Palestinians want to live in peace in their homeland, free from oppression. They do NOT WANT violence.
The only way peace can come about is through negotiated settlement which is equitable and just, like Michael said in his comment. Please read it before you make your assumptions…
February 8, 2007 at 9:46 pm
P.S. to Robert: Where do you see posters showing ‘no Israeli state’? I’ve never seen them, so please let me know…
I did NOT imply anywhere that the State of Israel should not exist. Of course they have the right to exist! Just as the Palestinians have the right to exist!
As for your inferences about my anti-Semitism, I’ve already talked about that at length…. there’s no for me to keep reiterating. Why are you so quick to dismiss that both Jews and Arabs are semitic. Indeed, Hitler was trying to wipe out the Jews not the Arabs. So in that context the modern use of ‘anti-semitism’ has validity. Why did Hitler not try to do the same thing to the Arabs? I don’t know, but my humble guess is that maybe because there were not many Arabs living in Germany at that time, so he could not blame the Weimar republic’s problems on them. The Jews happened to be there in large numbers — and throughout Europe, where pogroms and anti-Jewish sentiment & actions were already ongoing — so they were made the scapegoats by this crazed monster. But that horrible experience does not give Jews the right to use the Palestinians as their scapegoats in turn.
For more on this, please read to a post I put up a week or so ago, titled: “The Holocaust and Defense of the Palestinians”, written by a Jewish woman whose family were involved in the French Resistance, while other members/friends fell victims to the Nazis. It will show you a different perspective, and better explain what I am trying to say…. Above all, please keep an open mind, and try to look at all sides of this complex situation… (I don’t profess to know everything, indeed, the more I learn, the more I realise how little I know and how much I’ve still to learn…
Verbena-19
February 8, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Bellerophon, thank you for your comment. I can see that you are interested in intelligent discussion on this highly contentious, divisive issue. We may not fully agree, but at least you provide thoughtful insight into thinking and feeling the way you do… I will check out the links you’ve provided.
Brian, thanks for those references and links. Yes, I remember Rachel Corrie, I did a post about her last year on my old blog: verbena-19.blogspot.com, where it is still available for reading, as that site remains up and being used for my old archived posts (at least until I figure out what to do with them.).
I recommend that others read your references and the material in those links. Your input is much appreciated.
Annamarie
February 8, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Btw, in case I forgot to mention here in my previous replies to comments:
I find those extremists who advocate ‘death to Israel’ to be despicable. Therefore, I have deleted their comments. They serve no purpose except to incite more hatred and violence. As a peace worker, I am AGAINST ALL VIOLENCE!! I am working with peace professionals toward peaceful resolutions to conflict world-wide. We are working on implementing a federal Department of Peace in Canada, in partnership with other such campaigns in countries throughout the world.
To further this objective, I will be attending a National Strategy Meeting in Ottawa, Canada, early April of supporters of the Department of Peace Initiative.
This group includes such notables as:
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy,
Senator Douglas La Roche,
Prof. Glenn D. Paige,
Dr. Mary-Wynne Ashford,
Prof. Johan Galtung, and many others.
Some of the groups represented are:
Council of Canadians,
Canadian Pugwash Group,
Canadian Institute for Conflict Resolution,
Canadian Voice of Women for Peace,
Center for Global Nonviolence, Honolulu, Hawaii,
Civilian Peace Service Canada,
The Dalai Lama Foundation of Canada,
Nonviolent Peaceforce Canada,
World Conference on Religions for Peace,
Physicians for Global Survival,
Canadian Federation of University Women, and others, including a representative from the Green Party of Canada.
I am also working with my city to have Brampton join other cities throughout the world to become a ‘Peace City’.
So if you belong to ANY group which advocates violence, please do NOT waste your time by commenting here. You will definitely NOT find a sympathetic ear!!
February 9, 2007 at 2:31 am
verbena19:
1. “please refrain from name-calling an being hateful”- that applies to you too. To say that Israel is an “apartheid state” and “racist” is name calling. To say that that it practices “ethnical cleansing” is an outward lie and slander. So we will stop name calling as soon as you stop – deal?
2. “ I do NOT promote hatred, violence, racism, anti-semitism, apartheid, wars.” Yes you do. By blindly accepting the Palestinian propaganda you do not promote peace. By not criticising their consistent and perpetual violence against Isrealies and Jews (I say “Israelies” because they have murdered many Arab Israelies too. By the way, they have also murdered more than a hundred foreign nationals in Israel) you let the Palestinians get away with it, you let them think that violence is justified. By not condeming – and in fact ignoring - internal Palestinian violence (and that includes not only Hamas/Fatah violence, but also the killing of about a 250 Palestinian “collaborators”)you endorse it.Your map does not show Israel. Instead there is only Palestine there. Do you suppose Israel will just disappear peacefully? You gotta be kidding. If you really care about the Palestinians you should stand up against their habit to resort to violence as the only mean to settle differences.
3. “And let me remind you that the atrocities perpetrated against the Jews during the Nazis was not the fault of the Palestinians… It does not give the Jews reason to do the likewise… Does anyone remember the hateful pogroms?? Kristellnacht??? “
HOW DARE YOU? Did the Jews in Germany fire rockets into German cities? Did they exploded in resteraunts, busses and Café’s thereby murdering thousands of men and women, children and seniors? Did they riot in the streets? Threw stones and Molotov bottles on passing cars? Entered a school full of children and shot to death dozens of them? Entered a house where a family was sleeping and shot the parents and children to death? Murdered German athletes on the Olympic Games? Kidnapped airplanes? I am asking because by comparing the Jews in Germany to the Palestinians this is exactly what you are implying. Well, I am holding my breath waiting for you to present the historical evidence for how the Jews attacked Germany, how they claimed it all to be theirs.
And now let me seriously ask you: what do you expect Israelies to do? Do you expect them to just die quietly when the Palestinians explode everywhere and constantly fire rockets at their cities? They have tried everything – they offered them a state, the Palestinians rejected, they pulled out of Gaza – and got the Hamas in power, a kidnapped soldier, and rockets on Sderot. Don’t they have the right to fight back?
4. “Real solutions can only be brought about by open dialogue and actually listening what the other ’side’ has to say… “ – well this is not quite what your “aparthaeid week” is about, isn’t it? I mean, please show me where is the part in your program where you listen to the “other side”? As I do not see any of the Israeli side represented there.
5. “No nation has the right to rule over another” – I’ll agree with you there, so why stick only to Israel? Why not go against China who rule over Tibet, or Turkey, who rule over half Cyprus? Why single Israel out? And you say you are not an antisemite? so why are you picking on Jews?
February 9, 2007 at 2:55 am
Thank you for letting us know about all the events planned for this important week. For too long we have had to watch in silence as Palestinian rights get brazenly trampled on. As a teacher, I was appalled last year when the brilliant book by award winning children’s author Deborah Ellis - Three Wishes - about the stories of Israeli and Palestinian children were “censored” from school boards across Ontario with nary a cry of “freedom of speech”. I challenge all those who have commented against this protest week to read the book and find the “offensive” parts in it; my guess is that they wouldn’t be able to find anything but the truth about the contrast between the lives of Israeli and Palestinian children and the inhumane conditions that Palestinian children face each day. It is telling that while many of us see no issue with children as young as seven being educated about the horrors of the Holocaust, there is an outcry when children are exposed to the modern horrific realities of life for other peoples. Why do we give mere lip service to the powerful words “Never Again”?
This is one of the reasons why this week is so important. I will make sure other educators are informed about it. Thank you once again.
February 9, 2007 at 3:03 am
verbena19:
1. “Don’t you think that the Palestinians should be able to rule themselves in their OWN LAND?” – I most certainly do. However, they do not seem to want that for themselves. Otherwise, how would you explain the fact that they have rejected each and every proposal for the division of land? In 1937, 1947, and again in 2000? And why have they launched, during the peace process called the “Oslo accords”, a deadly series of suicide explosions? Why have they used that process to gather amunition? Why were they so cynical?
2. You ask: “Why can’t they co-exist peacefully, side-by-side, each in their own country?? Why is this so impossible??” – well this is a question you should refer to the palestinians. About a year ago I watched a TV show (not sure which channel was that) that crystalized my view on these matters. It was a talk with four Canadians palestinians, most were well educated, one of them a lawyer from Osgoode hall, none of them oppressed or especialy miserable. I was stunned to hear that none of them – NOT EVEN ONE – was willing to accept Israel’s right to exist. They wanted all or nothing. That’s their guiding principle. You see, this why a peaceful coexistence is impossible. And on the other hand ALL and I repeat ALL the Israelies I met here at U of T (there are quite a few of them around here, you know) were willing to accept a two state solution, provided of course, it would end violence and hostilities.
“So who should call whom ‘anti-Semite/anti-Semitic’?” – yes, I know that arabs and jews are both Semites. The first time a French friend had told me how antisemitic the Muslims in Paris are – I laughed. I did not believe. And then I found out how popular is Hitler’s Men Kampf is in the arab world. And then I found that the Hamas’s charter cites the infamous antisemitic hoax “the protols of the elders of zion”, and that it is not the only one to do so. And then I stopped laughing. It might be easier if you just call them Jew-haters instead of antisemitic.
February 9, 2007 at 3:17 am
Annamarie Says:
“There are many Jews living in Israel who do NOT agree with the terrible things being done in their name.” – yet those terrible things save their lives.
“As I keep repeating over and over again, most of the Palestinians want to live in peace in their homeland, free from oppression. They do NOT WANT violence.” – yet they elected Hamas, an organization advocating a genocide. Yet they danced on the roofs when Sadam fired rockets on Tel aviv and when almost 3000 people died in 9/11. That’s a strange way of displaying a will for peace, is it not?
“The only way peace can come about is through negotiated settlement which is equitable and just” – how can you discuss anything with someone who is willing to sucrifice his own well being, his own future as well as his children’s for the sacred purpose of wiping you off?
February 9, 2007 at 3:37 am
Joe, you are asking too many questions for me to answer right now. Please give me the link to the Map you are referring to — the one with no state of Israel on it. I’ve looked, but I can’t see it. It is not in my post about the U of T events. Where did you find it? I really would like to know. A couple other commenters had mentioned it too.
No, I know that the Jews did not throw bombs, molotov-cocktails, etc. at the Germans. Yes, some of the Palestinians (and other oppressed Arabs in other places) are doing just that. And no, I do not agree with it. Killing innocent people is NOT the way to win one’s freedom. As for the Oslo Accord, that was a slap in the face of the Palestinians. You must know that they were arbitrarily displaced when the Israeli state was established in their midst. The Palestinians want more than merely limited autonomy in Gaza, West Bank, Occupied Territories.
Sajda, thank you for your comment. Indeed, the words “never again” should be more than lip-service. Ethnic cleansing and genocide are being carried out in many parts of the world — obviously the dreaded “never again” has never stopped.
February 9, 2007 at 3:41 am
btw, Joe, if you read my previous posts, especially my Archives which are still posted on my old blog: http://verbena-19.blogspot.com you will see posts against many countries engaged in human rights abuses. Israel is not being ’singled out’.
February 9, 2007 at 5:26 am
verbena 19:
“No, I know that the Jews did not throw bombs, molotov-cocktails, etc. at the Germans.” – so if you know the comparison with Nazi Germany is wrong – why are you making it???
If I were a jew I would be deeply insulted. The Jews in Germany were proud of their citizenship and contributed to Germany in so many ways. They were never violent. Many of them died in the WW1 as soldiers in the German army. Not to mention their cultural and scientific contribution. Can you even imagine a Palestinian sacrifying its life to protect Israel? Can you name ANY cultural contribution made by the palestinians to Israel or to any other country (I mean, except suicide bombing) ? Do you not see how redicolous your comparison is? How offensive? Methink you should apologize.
And please take account of these data before you make any further comparisons between Jews and Nazis:
From Wikipedia:
• “Mein Kampf sells many examples in England in areas with a large Arab population [1].
• An Arabic edition of Mein Kampf has been published by Bisan publishers in Lebanon.
• Mein Kampf is sixth on the Palestinian bestseller list[2] and a bestseller in the entire Arab world [3].
• A new Turkish edition was reported to be a bestseller in Turkey in 2005 [6] [7]. “
“As for the Oslo Accord, that was a slap in the face of the Palestinians.” – I never knew that the offer to have an independent state with half Jerusalem and a huge amount of money (I think it was 35 billion, but not sure) as compensation can be considred a slap in the face. Of course, it is a slap when you want ALL of the teritorry to yourself.
A senior leader in Fatah, Ziyad Abu Ein, admitted in an interview on Al-Alam TV that the second intifada was planned not months, but years in advance:
“there would have been no resistance in Palestine if not for Oslo. It was Oslo that strongly embraced the Palestinian resistance … If not for Oslo, there would have been no resistance. Throughout the occupied territories, we could not move a single pistol from one place to another. If not for Oslo, the weapons we got through Oslo, and if not for the “A” areas of the Palestinian Authority, if not for the training, the camps, the protection provided by Oslo, and if not for the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners through Oslo — this Palestinian resistance could not have carried out this great Palestinian Intifada, with which we confronted the Israeli occupation” (Al-Alam TV, July 4, translation courtesy of Middle East Media Review Institute (MEMRI), July 27).
In other words: the Palestinians were anything but sincere. They were cynically using the growth of the Israeli camp for peace. It seems to me more like Oslo was a slap on the face of the Israelies.
“that they were arbitrarily displaced when the Israeli state was established in their midst.”- you mean, they arbitrarily run away after they attacked the Jews and it didn’t work out.
February 9, 2007 at 5:28 am
For your information-
Here are some of the stuff broadcasted on Palestinian TV:
“We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard
in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the
dead, as the prophet Mohammed said: ’The resurrection of the
dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them…’
We the Palestinians are the vanguard in this undertaking and in
this campaign, whether or not we want this…”(Palestinian TV,
July 28, 2000)
“Blessed is he who fights jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he
who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons
a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to
the depth of the Jews and says: ‘Allahu Akbar, blessed be Allah.’
Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in
their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset
collapsing on the heads of the Jews.” (Palestinian TV, June 8,
2001)
“O Allah, destroy America as it is controlled by Zionist Jews…
Allah will avenge, in the name of His Prophet, the colonialist
settlers who are the descendents of monkeys and pigs…“ [Ikrime
Sabri, Mufti of the Palestinian Authority, (from weekly sermon
in the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem). Voice of Palestine, July 11,
1997]
“Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason (Beirut al Massa, July 15, 1957).”
And for dessert, here the head of Hamas, Isma’il Haniya: “The language of blood is my language, and there is nothing but blood. I have shut my mouth to the art of speech, and let the machine gun do the talking. I let Al-Qassam do the talking, to turn the dens of the Jews into hell. “
Are these the people you support? Do these people want peace?
February 9, 2007 at 8:39 am
No, those are not the people I support. Definitely NOT! Like I said in my previous comments, I do NOT support extremists of ANY stripe!! (Just as I am totally against those white supremacist extremists, the KKK who are still alive and well in the US, and any other group who advocates violence.) No, those people — ALL EXTREMISTS — thrive on discord, which is their ‘raison d’etre’. In a peaceful society, these people would soon become redundant, useless, without adherents. (This is exemplified by Bush’s war on Iraq and GWOT, which is actually serving the extremists, jihadists, making their actions self-fulfilling prophecies. Their violence becomes reactive: they are under siege and occupation, so they do what they feel is their only recourse: violent reaction. In all this violence between different sides, mostly innocent people become the victims. When their families see this, they are motivated by revenge, and the cycle of hatred and violence grows as more adherents are added… That is why the way Bush is waging his GWOT is totally useless, like his Iraq ’surge’… It only makes more enemies and of course, obscene amounts of profits for all the arms dealers, mercenaries, military contractors, Halliburton et al, and all other war-profiteers…But that is another topic… Sorry I’ve digressed)
I am supportive of a genuine two-state solution, where both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace. You must admit that the continually growing Israeli settlements on previously-agreed upon Palestinian lands contravenes those agreements. This blatant disregard by Israel for the rights of Palestinians gives rise to even more extremism, like those you mentioned above. Sadly, because the Palestinians see no improvement in their situation, some of them fall prey to these extremists who promise to help them. So you see, the cycle of violence is perpetuated. This is why it is so important to achieve positive results based on dialogue and peace. I cannot stress the importance of dialogue! If the Palestinians would see genuine results in their now hopeless situation, they would be less likely to listen/follow the extremists.
(Here in Canada, I know many people of Palestinian and other Arab backgrounds, as well as many who are Jewish. Contrary to popular belief, they do not all hate each other, and we have regular get-togethers to discuss the Palestinian situation among other issues. These friends propose the same solutions as what I am trying to get across. )
The extremists are not the majority of Palestinians. The majority of Palestinians want to live in peace.
Talks between Israel and the Palestinians must increase Palestinian confidence in a two-state solution, thereby elevating those Palestinians who advocate such a solution and undermining those who reject a permanent peace.
However, if the Jewish settlements and the security fence under construction are not dismantled, this will doom any chance for a durable peace based on the two-state solution.
I have a couple questions for you:
1. Have successive Israeli governments pursued a settlement policy in the West Bank intentionally designed to thwart the creation of an economically viable Palestinian state with secure, contiguous borders?
2. What do you think of the behaviour of some Jewish settlers cursing and spitting on their Arab neighbours? From what I have heard from people who have been there on many occasions, these are not the isolated incidents reported recently in the mass media.
3. Have you heard about some suggested racist policies such as dividing Jews and Arabs into homogenous states?
4. What about the widespread land theft by Israel of Palestinian lands, according to reports from Peace Now, and Israeli group advocating Palestinian selft-determination in the West Bank?
The so-called ’security fence’ weaves in and out, sometimes following the pre-1967 boundary, more often not. The fence is largely built on Palestinian land, separating Palestinians from Palestinians, dividing and compartmentalising them.
When EU Foreign Policy Chief Javier Solana visited Israel in January of this year, he was ’shocked’ when he saw the extent to which Jewish settlement and the security fence construction were cutting into land the Palestinians wanted, and needed, for a two-state solution. Solana urged Israelis to freeze West Bank settlements and stop construction of the fence.
I know that one of the biggest issues is the dramatic growth of Israeli settlements over the last three decades, together with the road systems to support them. Outside East Jerusalem, there were about 7,000 settlers in the Occupied Territory in 1977. Today, some 260,000 settlers live in the West Bank along with 2.5 million Palestinians. So more than 200 Israeli settlements occupy less than 40% of the land. But because their footprint does not reflect land set aside for security barriers, roads, utilities, the settlements control more than 40% of the land. This settlement process has regularly deprived Palestinians of basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to life and liberty of person, the right to work, the right to freedom of movement. Palestinians are prohibited from using, or even crossing, many key roads connecting the settlements with each other and Israel itself.
Anyway, you and I will not solve the deep-rooted ongoing problems in that historically tragic region. However, we can have some discussions, which may improve our understanding, if nothing else.
Perhaps you may better understand why I feel as I do, why I feel empathy for those Palestinians whose lives are so tragic, if you knew a little of my background:
You see, my own little country in Eastern Europe was ‘occupied’ by the boot of the Stalinist regime of Soviet Russia. No, we were not put into ghettoes, but our lives were made miserable nevertheless. We had not freedom of speech, no human rights, no civil liberties. The hated Secret Police would come at all hours, breaking down doors, taking people away for interrogation, some who were never returned or heard from again. Neighbours were turned against neighbours, made to spy on each other. Parents had to whisper for fear of being overheard by their children, who in turn may say the wrong thing to the wrong person. All private businessess, including small shops, were seized by the State. Life was an intolerable, proverbial hell. When we finally could take it no longer, we organised a revolt, urged by the West who promised to come to our aid. We had our revolt, many lives were lost, but the West failed to come. A couple hundred thousand fled their homeland and became refugees, displaced persons, throughout the world…
Although I was a little girl during that terrible time, the images of the horrors I have seen have left their indelible imprint forever etched in my memory. This is why I have always championed the cause of those who are oppressed, downtrodden, maligned, segregated, ostracised, dehumanized. This is why I feel such empathy for the Palestinian people. I also have much empathy for the Indigenous Peoples of our world who have been colonized, enslaved and brutally treated, dehumanized, ethnically-cleansed, displaced. The Conquest of the Americas was one of the bleakest chapters in the history of our humanity, along with the genocide of the Holocaust, South African apartheid, American/White Man’s slavery, and all the other inhuman acts we’ve perpetrated upon our fellow beings. Sadly, we have not learned from history, as evidenced by the same horrors we are perpetrating to this day. Canada’s First Nations People are still fighting to keep the little bit of land that remains to them and to have drinkable, safe water on more than 200 reserves. And the Palestinians are still struggling, while violence escalates everywhere. And the horror never ceases…
February 9, 2007 at 5:26 pm
I am sorry I do not have the time for a longer reply, but I wonder: can’t you tell the difference between spitting (as reprehensible as it obviously is) and shooting a child sleeping in his bed or sitting in his parent’s car backseat? Or detonating yourself in disco full of youngsters?
You describe well your life under Stalinist regime, which have definetly made you desperate. But did it make you detonate yourself in Russian resaurants? Call for the Russians to be moved out of Russia? Did your people fire rockets at Russian cities?
I strongly resent the equation desperation= violence. The Jews in Europe had been subject to discrimination, pogroms and deportations, yet they have never became violent. This equation works only when it comes to Muslims, and you guys, instead of teaching them that this is no way to solve problems, turn a blind eye, understanding it, justifying it.
And in most cases simply ignoring it, as if its not there. As for the separation fence. I am always amazed by how seriously you treat every inconvenience caused to the Palestinians and on the other hand by how lightly you consider the lives of Jews. THE FENCE SAVES LIFES. It is a defensive measure, it does not kill. But of course, it’s Jews whose life are saved so who cares. I am truly sorry that it causes some inconveniences to Palestinians, but you have to understand that while the fence is temporary, the loss of life is permanent. If the Palestinians want nicer lives, they should perhaps consider to stop killing Jews, shouldn’t be that hard now, should it?
As for the settlements – no, I don’t think they should be there either, I would be happy if they were removed, but not while violence is taking place. And in any case, you and I both know that the settlements are not the issue. Israel suffered from terror attacks long before 1967, in the 1950s alone more than a thousand Israelis have been murdered by such attacks. The PLO, whose main goal had been to wipe Israel off through armed struggle was established in 1964, three years prior to the “occupation”, and Israel was attacked in 1967 not because it was an “occupier” but because it existed.
PS. I am still waiting for your apology concerning the equation of Palestinians to Jews under the Nazis. Thanks.
February 9, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Now I am the one who does not have time for a longer reply, as I must go out.
As I’ve said before, violence is wrong and suicide bombing is not the way to settle issues. I agree with you there. Back in my days, we tried to change things by other means, believing that the “pen is mightier than the sword”. But ultimately that failed, that is why we had our revolution with its disastrous consequences.
Ok, I apologise for the equation of Palestinians to Jews under the Nazis. No, the Palestinians are not being gassed in death camps. My ‘equation’ was more analogous… What I was trying to say is that sadly those who were oppressed and persecuted in the past are now oppressing another group. This is wrong, whichever way you look at it. Sadly, humans do not learn the painful lessons of history.
I still disagree with you about the ’security fence’. Parts of it run through Palestinian land and it is divisive. I have never agreed with those who say: “good fences make good neighbours”. The fence is obviously a contentious issue and does it really make the Jews more secure? Or does it make the Palestinians feel more displaced, disenfranchised and confrontational?
I am an advocate and proponent of peace, and after all the violence, I still hold firmly to my belief that lasting peace can not be achieved through violence, at the end of a gun…. For peace to last, it must be achieved through peaceful means… I know this may not be a popular view during these violent times.
btw, I am still waiting for the link to that map you referred to, the one showing no state of Israel. I can not see it or find it anywhere in my post…
I have to run now, perhaps we can discuss more about this topic… You seem like an intelligent person, and it is good to have discussions even though we may not necessarily agree with one another. Perhaps if more people had these open discussions — dialogue — many issues would be resolved peacefully…
take care and best regards. Have a nice day.
Annamarie
February 9, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Wow what a discussion we have here between Joe and Verbena19.
Joe, I am impressed with your quotes from Palestinian T.V. and others. If you could link to where you found them they would be very helpful in several of my own such arguments in the future. It is obvious that you have had more personal experiences with those who are prejudice against Jews and Israel than I, but even over the internet, such talk drives me to anger.
Verbena19, I admire that you wish for peace where ever possible, for the best of every civilization is found during times of prosperity and peace. However, I don’t know that peace is a viable option in all cases, at least, that is, until some sort of violence is used to bring about the necessary conditions to promote peace. Negotiations should always be given as many chances as possible to succeed, but when they fail, what then?
I guess the biggest trouble I have with your complaints about Israel, is that I am not hearing a viable solution for the current problems. I hear ‘don’t build a fence’ and ‘don’t invade Gaza’ and ‘don’t make checkpoints’, but I do not hear a solution that will protect the civilians in Israel. For instance, if the fence is dismantled, how then do we stop suicide bombers from killing people? From my link before, the facts are that even though there are fewer successful suicide bombers currently, the number of attempts at murdering civilians has gone up. And don’t tell me that if the fence is dismantled that there will no longer be a motivation for attacking, because remember that it was the surrounding Arabic countries that first attacked Israel just months after the country was formed. And also remember what is stated in Hamas’ charter, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” Say what you want about Israel’s actions, but they are pragmatic and they do work to prevent violence against their citizens.
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
One last thing, you mentioned that defense contractors were making obscene profits including Haliburton. That is a myth as all defense contractors get the same contract and do not make much NET profit. Read here for a complete debunking of that argument:
http://themiddleground.blogspot.com/2004/06/busting-conspiracy-theories-1-blood_30.html
And if you think that war contractors just make weapons to kill people, then I suggest that you read about the Marshal Plan after WWII and how war contractors rebuilt Europe. For that matter, read here about how the contractors in the Corps of Engineers is currently rebuilding Iraq. http://www.grd.usace.army.mil/
February 9, 2007 at 9:19 pm
I got to say I love your comparisons. At first the Palestinians were equated with the Jews in Nazi Germany. Now you compare them to the First Nations People .Yeah, right. What a simplistic outlook: everything is like everything else.
To make it straightforward, let me point out just some of the differences between First Nations People and Palestinians. By contrast with the Palestinians, the First Nations People are not backed up financially by Iran, Saudi Arabia, the EU, the UN (UNWRA receives HUGE budgets), the US and Israel. Per capita, no other people in the whole world receive similar amounts. The Palestinians are world record holders in this respect. And have no mistake – they are far from being the poorest. There are about 80 countries poorer than them. By contrast with the Palestinians, First Nations are not armed to their teeth or politically backed by fifty something Muslim states. You see, it is not the Palestinians against Israelies, it is the whole Arab and Muslim world against Israel, the Palestinians being just the pawns. And here is another difference: First Nations People do not read Mein Kampf.
Just one last thing before I leave this thread: I am sure you have good intentions and mean well, as I am sure you are not anti-Semitic. The people you support however are anti-Semitic. Moreover, they do not share your beautiful ideals of equality and human rights. It only take one glance at the Palestinian authority to find that gays are being prosecuted (in many cases they flee to Israel, where they do have rights and protection), women and children abused and degraded, and often used as “human shields” (a practiced severely criticized by many human rights organizations), freedom of press and of speech has long been forgotten. It’s a shame you can’t see that. You wish to protect those who despise your own ideals, those who use your good intentions to their political ends.
February 9, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Joe, you may find this article interesting. It’s about Kagame in Rwanda, but illustrates past tragedies are often exploited to justify committing current atrocities. The Jewish people have suffered tremendously but that doesn’t give them carte blanche to harm others.
The Palestinian people are currently suffering and the rest of the world simply blames them - all of them. Yes there are violent extremists, yes there is hatred, but the peaceful majority, the regular people, the children, the women… it is they who have the worse effects of this visited upon them. And they are blamed for their own suffering, denounced simply for who they are.
February 9, 2007 at 10:36 pm
My comparison of the Palestinians with the First Nations is based on their shared history of having been dispossessed of their lands and treated as inferior people therein. Is that really so ’simplistic’? Perhaps.
As for military and financial support, everyone knows that the state of Israel has enormous backing of the US, both in funds and weapons.
Do you think that Israel’s bombing of Lebanon ‘back to the Stone Age’ was a justified response to the kidnapping of a couple soldiers? Do you think that destroying Lebanon’s infrastructure and polluting the surrounding Mediterrean was justified response??
The situation is dire and deplorable on all sides.. Obviously, something other than violence and military might is needed to arrive at a settlement that is fair to all. I do not know how this could be accomplished, but negotiations and dialogue with ALL involved parties would be a good start.
What do you think about the violent clashes now taking place because of Israel’s excavation close to the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, which is sacred to both Jews and Arabs?
For Arabs:
Site of Prophet Muhammad’s first prayers and ascent into Heaven, home to al-Aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock.
For Jews:
Site of first and second Temples and the rock on which Abraham offered his son as a sacrifice.
The compound, in the Old City in East Jerusalem - an area captured by Israel during the 1967 Middle East war - has regularly been a flashpoint for violence.
Honestly, when I read reports such as these, I feel quite hopeless about peace ever being achieved in that region, at least not in my lifetime.
And just to reiterate that I am not ‘anti-semitic’, I’ll tell you that my favourite uncle saved many Jewish lives during the Nazi terror, at great risk to his own life and that of his family.. In recognition of this, he was invited to visit Israel many, many years ago to be present at a tree-planting ceremony is his honour. My mother may still have the newspaper clipping, although this was a long time ago. My uncle died shortly thereafter. Just wanted to let you know…. (If I can manage to find a link about it, I’ll put it in here. I’d like to read it again anyway, and see his picture.)
Annamarie
February 9, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Red Jenny, thank you for your comment to Joe and the article link. It underscores what I’ve been trying to explain here.
best regards,
Annamarie
February 10, 2007 at 3:43 am
What do I think of the recent events in Jerusalem? Actually I am glad you asked. In 1967, for the first time in 1900 years, the Jews held the Temple Mount for a few hours. And what did they do right away? Returned it to the Muslims. Ever since then the place is run by the Muslim Wakf. Did you know that Jews and Christians are not allowed into Al- Aksa? It is under Israeli rule, yet Jews are not allowed in. The Israeli authorities cannot guarantee their safety. Taking into account the fact that under Jordanian rule most synagogues in the old city were desecrated, (and the same thing happened when Israel left Gaza recently – all synagogues were desecrated and burned. Have you seen the Jews riot over this? I know I haven’t) I think this feature displays well the Israeli sensitivity. Can you think of a church or synagogue where Muslims are not allowed in? Can you even imagine Christians or Jews attacking other people inside their holy place of worship? Yet this is exactly what Muslims do in Al- Aqza. They did the same during the second Intifada when they fortified in a church in Bethlehem, taking the priests hostage. They KNEW IDF will not attck a holy place. As I said before, they know how to take advantage of other people’s morals, and that includes yours.
Now to the point: The Israelies are fixing a bridge that was damaged in a snow storm two years ago. It crumbles, it has to be fixed. They assured the Wakf that the construction will not damage any part of the holy site, and even suggested placing video cameras, so that the Wakf can watch the construction and be assured that no harm is done. Yet the Wakf saw an opportunity for political and financial gains (they get lots of donations following such incidents, and their political status in the Muslim world gather strength). Nothing new about it. Every now and then they spread lies about the Jews wanting to take over the place. I hope you do realize its lies. After all, if the Jews wanted to take over, they could have done that a long time ago, and they wouldn’t give the place to the Wakf in the first place. I mean, if they fear the construction might harm the holy place, wouldn’t it make more sense to speak with the Israeli authorities, to find out exactly what is going to occur, and perhaps receive clarifications? But no, just like in the case of the Danish cartoons, the Pope’s speech and in Paris, the answer is always one: violence, violence and some more violence. BTW, I think the Israeli policemen were extremely restraint – no one was seriously wounded, and there were more injured policemen than rioters. That in itself speaks volumes. Am I to understand from your question that you think these riots were justified? But… but… but you are against violence, aren’t you?
As for Lebanon, I will just say shortly that I think the Israelies had full justification, under every possible law in the world to fight Lebanon. Moreover, I think they were too careful, too sensitive to human lives, letting the civilians know in advance where they are about to attack, giving them time to leave the place. Let me remind you – they did that on account of THEIR OWN civilians and soldiers, because in this way they lost the element of surprised and enabled Hizbollah to hit their civilian population harder. I have a friend in Beirut and he defined the bombing of the IDF as “clean” – no less. He says they knew exactly where Hizbollah were and hit only there. That’s the words of Lebanese, not mine.
Now you tell me what do you think about what Hizbollah is doing now to Lebanon? And also if you think Lebanon and UNIFIL are complying with UN decision to disarm Hizbollah.
February 10, 2007 at 3:58 am
Red Jenny,
Please look into all my posts – I have never ONCE mentioned to Holocaust or used it as an excuse for anything. Not even once. Your link is therefore irrelevant.
No, the Jewish people suffering does not give them any rights other than that of having their own state, the one place where they can be safe from prosecution. They do not have a right to harm others; no one has that right UNLESS he is attacked. And unfortunately the Jews have been under a constant attack for many years now. I believe they have the right to defend themselves, and I am truly sorry for the Palestinian children. It is indeed not their fault that their parents are willing to sacrifice their future and well being for the dream of an Islamic state over all of Palestine. But just the same, it is not Israel’s fault, and it is not the Israeli children’s fault. Did you know that ever since the first Gulf war, when Israel was attacked by Iraq with Rockets that could have been chemical, every baby born in Israel receives a gas tent (it is replaced later on with a gas mask)? Did you know that every house build in Israel must have one room made of reinforced concrete and sealable for the case of a chemical or conventional attack? Show me one other country in the world that has to live like that. I wonder how come you do not feel for them as well.
February 10, 2007 at 4:01 am
Oh, and I have another question for you Annmarie:
The week against Israeli apartheid includes a call to boycott Israel. I was wondering if you support that. Thanks.
February 10, 2007 at 5:20 am
Bellerophon, yes I know that the solutions are not as simple as removing fences, but that would be a start as a show of good faith. Talks must resume with all sides sitting down at the negotiating table, and viable agreements proposed, discussed, drawn up, with an independent body (the UN?) overseeing the process and ensuring that all sides adhere to them.
This is why any process must include ALL sides, otherwise those left out may feel the right to disregard them.
But since the fence is such a highly contentious issue, it seems like a good point to start. Remember, it is not only keeping the Jews apart from the Palestinians, but it is also keeping Palestinians apart from each other — their neighbours, families and relatives, and often their jobs. It also runs through some Palestinian land. Then there are the ever-growing, encroaching settlements, which must be stopped, and dismantled, however painful that may be to those already living there, and the land given back to the Palestinians. Personally, I’d be inclined to give the Palestinians the houses along with the land if they wanted them, rather than wastefully bulldozing them, but that’s just how my mind works. (btw, this land encroachment is happening here in Canada with our Native people, whose already greatly reduced reservations are constantly being further gobbled up in the name of urban progress, in other words: housing, businesses, hydro plants, logging, mining, etc. for the ’settlers’. This has upset the Natives, and rightly so! We have stolen most of their land!! Successive governments have failed to address hundreds of long-outstanding land claims. This is deplorable!)
Perhaps if Palestinians did not feel dispossessed and alienated in their land, they would be more accepting of their Jewish neighbours, who in turn, should learn to treat the Palestinians with regard, respect, instead of inferior human beings. These things are mutual. Both sides must give before they can take. Teaching children not to hate the ‘other’ is also important. As it is now, children learn at a very early age to hate and fear the ‘other’, so that is all they know. As they grow up, this fear and hatred intensifies, creating deeper divisions, more hatred leading to violence, and the cycle starts all over again with each new generation…. The schools on both sides could be the venues for re-educating children, with joint organizations independent of governments overseeing and providing help/staff if needed. Re-educating the parents is imperative as well.
On the topic of school-children:
Here in Canada a smart group (don’t recall the name of the organisation) set up a summer camp for teenaged school-children from Israel and the Occupied Territories.
To make the long story short, at first these youngsters felt wary, reticent, fearful — and sometimes even hostile toward — the ‘other group’. After a mere 2-3 days of hiking through nature trails, canoeing, swimming, ball-playing, sharing meals, arts & crafts, open discussions, in other words interacting with each other, these teens got along surprisingly well. They surprised themselves! One of the main topics discussed was that they were taught to dislike, mistrust the ‘other’, whether taught explicitly or implicity, I do not remember, but nevertheless, that is what these children knew all their young lives: to distrust, dislike, even hate the ‘other’. When they found their ‘commonality’ through discussions and sharing the camp & its activities, they saw that neither group was much different from the ‘other’. They left the camp feeling very positive — some of them forming lasting friendships — they took this message back with them, promising to tell others back home of their experiences.
Just think what could be accomplished if these youngsters’ numbers were multiplied! If this could happen in a rural Canadian camp, could camps like these not be started back home?
I know all this sounds simplistic and idealistic. But sometimes the answers are not nearly as complicated as we think. Just remember that most people are really not all that different. They want and need the same things: shelter, food, clothing, medical care in time of sickness, and schooling for their children and the jobs to enable them to provide these necessities. If they are agrarian, they need their plot of land to work upon, or flock to tend.. People also want to be treated with dignity, decency, respect and equality. This is the backbone of all humans and is what unites us at our core. The people who have these basic human needs and rights will not want to risk losing them by waging war on others. So it is really not all that complicated.
But governments and our ‘esteemed leaders’ would like us to think otherwise. The military-industrial complex generates huge amounts of money for the ruling elite. They can’t fathom the profits they would lose by turning those machines of destructions into ‘ploughshares’ ( figuratively speaking).
Re your laudatory comment about Halliburton, military contractors: Yes, some of the effort has been/is being used for re-building and betterment, however, much is being used for destruction while bilking the taxpayer. It would take far too long for me to go into a discussion about that now.
regards,
Annamarie
February 10, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Unfortunately the responses to Verbena’s post have ultimately proved few people are even willing to consider Israel is the aggressor in the Middle East.
For those wanting to offer solutions to the Middle East problems it is necessary to take the position of everyone involved into account. The mainstream media does not represent the wishes of all the Israelis and Palestinians. For too often the mainstream media is an active participant in propagating violence and subverting the truth.
Joe and anyone else interested, Please would you kindly take the time to read the following links.
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=16
I have been following the posts and as I reiterated earlier, the only way to find peace in the Middle East is through a negotiated settlement which benefits all involved. A settlement of this nature should be between Israel and the Palestinians, and not influenced by the US or anyone else.
In the late 1980s up to the mid 1990s South Africa was on the brink of civil war. The apartheid government was killing black South Africans and various political factions were fighting one another and the country was in a state of emergency.
Fortunately those in power had the foresight to realise the continuing violence would not solve the country’s problems and so they negotiated a settlement which was fair and equitable. The negotiations paved the way for democratic elections and the political violence ended soon after. Had these negotiations not been seen as just by the ANC, any deals would have been rejected. South Africa is by no means paradise, but the fundamental facts remain. Violence cannot solve problems.
The Israeli government says it is committed to keeping Israelis safe. This is a lie. What its policies of persecuting the Palestinians are doing is planting the seeds of hatred so successive Palestinian generations will be raised to hate Israelis. In turn these people, made desperate by their circumstances, will continue advocating the destruction of Israel and killing Israelis. Israelis, forced to live in increased fear, will respond by pressuring their government to act, resulting in more F16 bombs being dropped in the occupied territories and more people dying. The extremist Palestinian groups will use this to perpetuate the cycle of violence. The end result is more deaths on both sides of the conflict.
If the Israeli government is serious about peace it would negotiate on equal terms with the Palestinians. If the Palestinians are granted a just settlement, they will have no reason to continue their armed struggle against Israel. Then both sides can talk about a future of peace.
February 10, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Annmarie,
You asked about the anti-terror fence. Well, I found these data for you: During the 34 months from the beginning of the violence in September 2000 until the construction of the first continuous segment of the security fence at the end of July 2003, Samaria-based terrorists carried out 73 attacks in which 293 Israelis were killed and 1950 wounded. In the 11 months between the erection of the first segment at the beginning of August 2003 and the end of June 2004, only three attacks were successful, and all three occurred in the first half of 2003.
Since construction of the fence began, the number of attacks has declined by more than 90%. The number of Israelis murdered and wounded has decreased by more than 70% and 85%, respectively, after erection of the fence.
Not a single Palestinian died because of the fence, and many terrorist who were caught and investigated admitted that the fence made their desire to harm Israeli civilians much harder to achieve. On November 11, 2006, Islamic Jihad leader Abdallah Ramadan Shalah said on Al-Manar TV the terrorist organizations had every intention of continuing suicide bombing attacks, but that their timing and the possibility of implementing them from the West Bank depended on other factors. “For example,” he said, “there is the separation fence, which is an obstacle to the resistance, and if it were not there the situation would be entirely different.”
And you think Israel should dismantle the fence? Tell me please, how many Israelis need to sacrifice their lives so that the Palestinians will feel less “occupied”? How many would you sacrifice for that purpose? Please provide a number. I am interested to know.
You say you are fin favour of a dialogue, well, strangely enough I agree with you here. But you can only have a dialogue with someone who wants a dialogue too; you cannot have a dialogue with someone who announces that “the sword in my word”. This is exactly what Ismail Henia, the elected Palestinian prime minister declared. Sorry, you cannot negotiate with a shark. You can surely give it a try though, let me know how it feels – that is, if you’ll survive the experience.
February 10, 2007 at 4:51 pm
“Just remember that most people are really not all that different. They want and need the same things: shelter, food, clothing, medical care in time of sickness, and schooling for their children and the jobs to enable them to provide these necessities.”
sorry again I do not have the time to respond to your post, you have made up quite a bit over there, for example, how do you know that Israelies treat Palestinians as inferior? where did you get that from? they treat them as a danger, as hostile (can you blame them after all they have been through?)- not as inferior.
But this sentence is so ludicorous I must bitterly giggle. Do we indeed all want the same? If the Palestinians want shool for their children, then why do they use the billions of dollars they receive each year on explosives and rockets? why don’t they build schools, universities, hospitals, libraries? If they want a better future for their children, why are they so happy when their children detonate thenselves among Israelies? No, apparently we are not all the same. We have grown up to believe that all people mean well, yet the definition of “well” apparently changes from one culture to another.
Chief Palestinian Authority cleric Mufti Sheikh Ikrimeh Sabri stated, “We tell them, in as much as you love life, the Muslim loves death and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom.” Saudi Sheikh Abd Al-Muhsin Al-Qassem in Al-Madina added: “The Jews preached permissiveness and corruption, as they hid behind false slogans like freedom and equality, humanism and brotherhood… They are cowards in battle… they flee from death and fear fighting… They love life.”
Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah revealed in an interview after the recent prisoner swap between Israel and his group: “We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.”
No Annmarie, they love death, not life. We dont want the same things.
February 10, 2007 at 8:16 pm
Joe, I hear what you are saying. But the Palestinians you describe so disparagingly are the extremists, not the average Palestinian who indeed does want the same things that most people want. These are the people I refer to, NOT the extremist. Admittedly, there are a many extremists among the Arabs, but extremists are also among the Jews… Not to mention white-supremacists in the US, EU and elsewhere…
“Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah revealed in an interview after the recent prisoner swap between Israel and his group: “We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.” ”
This is the extremist viewpoint. Everyday, average Palestinians/Arabs do not believe this. I cannot believe that an entire race of people “love death”! That is so contrary to human nature! And how would they have survived and propagated if indeed the majority of Arabs loved death more than life? Would they not be nearing extinction??
(I know, I know, you’re probably giggling again at my ‘naivete’…
If what you say about the ’security fence’ is factual, then it shows that the peace process must be negotiated even more earnestly, and like Michael suggested, without US interference. Hatreds and divisions run so deep — and for a very long time — that to undo the damage will take earnest, concerted effort on ALL sides.
“Now you tell me what do you think about what Hizbollah is doing now to Lebanon? And also if you think Lebanon and UNIFIL are complying with UN decision to disarm Hizbollah.”
To tell you the truth, I don’t have an answer to that… As you have seen from my posts and comments, I am AGAINST violence, especially as a means to achieve peace. Perhaps some Lebanese feel that Hezbollah is their only protection… Not living there, I honestly do not know, so I must leave this question to those who do.
regards,
Annamarie
February 11, 2007 at 2:23 am
Where to begin….
Verbena19, you continually refer to the people that Joe quotes as extremists that do not have the support of the ‘normal’ person. Yet, these people are the spiritual and governmental leaders in their countries. These leaders have all been quoted in Joe’s posts as stating that Israel should be destroyed.
Chief Palestinian Authority cleric Mufti Sheikh Ikrimeh Sabri
Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah
head of Hamas, Isma’il Haniya
A senior leader in Fatah, Ziyad Abu Ein
Now, here are a few more: (wikipedia sources)
–Hamas Chater: “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.”
–Hamas Government Official Dr Al-Zahar stated his “dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it…I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel). This dream will become real one day. I’m certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land”.
–Co-founder of Hamas Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Yassin, “The so-called peace path is not peace and it is not a substitute for jihad and resistance.”
–Co-founder of Hamas Dr. Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, “We will kill Jews everywhere. There will be no security for any Jews, those who came from America, Russia or anywhere.”
–A leader in the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade Maslama Thabet, “”We receive our instructions from Fatah. Our commander is Yasser Arafat himself.”
–Former Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei of Fatah, “We have clearly declared that the Aksa Martyrs Brigades are part of Fatah. We are committed to them and Fatah bears full responsibility for the group.”
–In the Palestinian parliamentary election of January 2006, 57% of the electorate voted for Hamas.
–Poll Feb 2006, ~56% of Palestinians favor suicide bombings against Israeli Civilians. ~44% thought suicide bombings were a good idea right then. 81% of Palestinians don’t think that Hamas is a terrorist group. 81% think Hamas are freedom fighters. 79% of Palestinians do not consider bombing Israeli buses and restaurants terrorism.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/poterror.html
–70% of Lebanese supported Hezbollah attacking and kidnapping Israeli soldiers. ~87% supported the efforts of Hezbollah in fighting Israel.
http://www.beirutcenter.info/default.asp?contentid=692&MenuID=46
I don’t know how you can continue saying that the majority of the population supports peace in the face of such statistics. On the other hand, can you point to one quote from a leader in the Israeli government that calls for the complete eradication of Palestine or the Palestinian people? Have you ever heard them say that their stated goal is the destruction of all Muslims?
February 11, 2007 at 3:03 am
I see what you mean, Annamarie!
On this conflict, I have found that it is very difficult to have a dialogue. I shouldn’t worry about those negative comments. I don’t get them often at my site but when I do, they do not rattle me for behind those comments, I sense FEAR! Believe me, I do understand where that fear comes from and I do feel sad for the commentors. I wish that I could make the fear go away but I can’t.
I don’t know whether you know of Gilad Atzmon. I don’t agree with everything that he writes although he knows the situation very well. His latest piece on “Being and Tiime”, which you can find here, to me, is heart-wrenching.
And so, yes, I do understand the “hateful” comments. I can’t stop them and neither can you. In fact, I do not want to stop them. I do not think that I have the right to. Whenever I can, I provide alternative reasoning. Most of the time though I just let things be as both I and the commentor are beyond reach of each other’s arguments.
Take care! and bon courage!
February 11, 2007 at 9:21 am
Bellerophon, you provide some compelling quotes and facts. However, I still maintain that most Palestinians want to live in peace if given the choice. They are people who are close to their land — their land is their soul. By taking away that ’soul’, they have lost their lives. Perhaps that is why so many of them no longer seem to care about sacrificing that which they had already lost…
Not being a Palestinian — or an Arab, or Jewish — I can only TRY to comprehend the incomprehensible. I fail to believe that violence is inherent in Arabs, as you and Joe imply. If it seems that way, there must be an underlying reason…
Perhaps the state of Israel as it is today should become truly democratic: a multi-cultural state where all people are proportionately represented in the governing of that state. Where everyone is equal: no more, no less. Where people are not categorised according to religion: ie. Christian, Muslim, Jew, atheist, agnostic, whatever, and not categorised according to race: Semite (Jew & Arab), Caucasian, African, Asian, etc…They are simply: citizens of Israel-Palestine (just an example), like people are in all ‘democratic’ countries… J Of course, not living in the region, I have no idea if the inhabitants would consider this, or if it has been considered and discarded as not viable, or if it’s simply the rambling thoughts of my tired mind…
FurGaia, thanks for the wonderful links. I’ve just read them, and bookmarked the articles for future reference and reading. It is rare to read such compelling papers by an obviously enlightened intellectual. Our world could use many more unprejudiced philosopher thinkers-peace seekers such as Atzmon.
Appreciate your comment and encouragement.
take care and best regards,
Annamarie
February 12, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Oh Verbena, you never let the facts confuse you. You disregard all the quotes and statistics, and simply refuse to believe it. Well, what can I see - I give up. But please remeber that you were the one who asked for an intelligent debate, this means - among the rest - daeling with facts. From some reason you refuse to do that, and desperately cling to your somewhat naive belief that all humans are good. I would like to share that belief of yours, but alas - after the holoucast, Stalin, the killing fields etc. it seems no longer possible.
I have just two last comments for you, and that will be all. First - please note that Hassan Nassrallah might be an extrimist, but right now he is the most popular figure in the Muslim world. Ismail Henia might be an extremist as well - but he is the Palestinian prime minister, chosen by the MJORITY of palestinian voters. Sure, there are Israeli extrimists, as there are KKK members over here, in north america. But neither were chosen or admired by the majority of Israelis or americans. On the contrary - they are treated with contempt.
Secondly, your rant about Israel as being “undemocratic” reveals a disturbing level of ignorance. Not surprising for someone whith complete disregard for facts. Well here are the news for you: Israel is a democracy in which ALL CITIZENS are equal, no matter waht their religion is nor their ethnical background. There are more than a million Arabs who are isareli citizens, and they have about 12 representatives in the Israeli parliament. You are most invited to consult the proffesors from law school here, at U of T. some of them are teaching classes at Tel aviv University, so they know the Israeli law pretty well. The ONLY discrimination in Israeli law between Jews and Arabs is that Arabs are not obliged to serve in the army. They can volnteer, if they want (and many of them do, by the way, also gays and lesbian can serve in the Israeli army), but they are not obliged to do that. That is all. Please feel free to examine and verify this. Actually, I beg you to do that. As a point to begin with, I quote in the next post the testimony of Brigitte Gabriel, a Lebanese who had been to Israel.
And another thing: democracy and multiculturalism are not the same. A state can be a democracy without being multiculural. And if you haven’t heard the news yet - then multiculturalism failed.
PS. Please dont even try to hint that the Palestinians are attacking israel because it is not democratic enough. If that was the case they would first have to attack Egypt, Syria and Jordan - or are these countries considered democratic in your dictionary?
February 12, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Remarks of Brigitte Gabriel, delivered at the Duke University Counter Terrorism Speak-Out
Friday, August 11th, 2006
I’m proud and honoured to stand here today, as a Lebanese speaking for
Israel , the only democracy in the Middle East . As someone who was raised
in an Arabic country, I want to give you a glimpse into the heart of the
Arabic world.
I was raised in Lebanon , where I was taught that the Jews were evil,
Israel was the devil, and the only time we will have peace in the Middle
East is when we kill all the Jews and drive them into the sea.
When the Moslems and Palestinians declared Jihad